Relationship Matters

Worldwork Bonus: What inclusion means & how diversity is wasted when inclusion is not present

July 13, 2022 CRR Global
Relationship Matters
Worldwork Bonus: What inclusion means & how diversity is wasted when inclusion is not present
Show Notes Transcript

In this collection of bonus episodes, we’re looking at the concept of Worldwork, which embraces the idea that we are continuously impacting the world, whether we are conscious of it or not. Whilst Worldwork can involve big acts of altruism and community spirit, it always starts with self. Across the course of these 5 bonus episodes, you will be hearing from Worldworkers from across the globe, who have all used ORSC tools in very different ways tools to serve their wider communities.

In this episode, Katie talks with Stephen Light and Jeffrey Wotherspoon about their Worldwork project: why inclusion is key to leveraging and honouring diversity. Across the conversation, Stephen and Jeffrey use their own relationship as a model for exploring what inclusion really means and how diversity is wasted when inclusion is not present. The intention of their work is to help people in organisations feel safe to speak up and shift outdated limiting ways of working that prevent the organisational culture from truly thriving. Ultimately, they want to ensure that everyone who is at the party is invited to dance…

Stephen Light is a Master Coach and certified ORSC coach with over 21 years of experience. Stephen works in major corporates at all levels, from CEOs and their Boards through to new leadership. He facilitates leadership programmes growing leadership capability to drive a high-performance culture. Stephen is highly skilled in creating engagement and facilitating learning in person and in the virtual space. Stephen coaches executives and teams, moving them to being more effective at creating engagement and achieving results. His driving philosophy is, “If you want something you have never had, you need look in places that you never look in and you have to do something you have never done. 

Jeffrey Wotherspoon is an Executive and Leadership Coach accredited with both the Internal Coaching Federation at Professional Certified Coach (PPC) level and with the Association for Coaching at a Professional Executive Coach level. He is also an International Trainer/ facilitator  and Conflict Resolution Specialist with a Psychology BSc (Hons). Jeffrey works with a full range of professional roles from C-Suite executives to those early on in their careers and across the private, public and voluntary sectors. In addition, Jeffrey also coaches those who would not ordinarily have access to coaching, including young men in prison and underrepresented young women. He is active in a range of pro bono roles, sitting on the Advisory Board for ‘Culture at Work’- a leading global Coaching company that offers Coach Training to Senior Executives worldwide; and as a Trustee for two charities Peer Power’ and Jubilee ‘Primary School’.


The Worldwork Project is a key element in the ORSC certification journey. It allows students to apply the ORSC™ materials in the real world and develop themselves as change agents. At CRR Global we hold all our students as change agents and train them to be conscious of what impact they want to make in their world. We believe that everybody’s impact –whether conscious or unconscious— sends ripples out into the world. It’s up to all of us, as world workers, to keep our communities safe and healthy. For more information about World Work and the ORSC Certification programme click here.


 We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Key 

 

KC – Katie Churchman 

SL - Stephen Light

JW - Jeffrey Wotherspoon

 

[Music intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

 

KC - Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast Worldworks Special. We believe relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. I’m your host Katie Churchman and in this collection of bonus episodes we’re looking at the concept of Worldwork which embraces the idea that we are continuously impacting the world whether we’re conscious of it or not. Whilst Worldwork can involve big acts of altruism and community spirit, it always starts with the self. Across the course of these five bonus episodes you’ll be hearing from Worldworkers from across the globe who’ve all used organizational and relationship systems coaching tools in very different ways to serve their wider communities. In this episode I’m talking with Stephen Light and Jeffrey Wotherspoon about their Worldwork project: why inclusion is key to leveraging and honoring diversity. Stephen Light is a master coach and certified ORSC coach with over 21 years of experience. He works in major corporates at all levels, from CEOs and their Boards through to new leadership. He facilitates leadership programs growing future leaders and is highly skilled in creating engagement and facilitating learning in the virtual space. His driving philosophy is if you want something you’ve never had you need to look in places that you never look in and you have to do something you have never done. Jeffery Wotherpsoon is an experienced coach and trainer working with a full range of professional roles, from C-Suite executives to those early on in their careers and across the private, public and voluntary sectors. In addition, Jeffrey also coaches those who would not ordinarily have access to coaching, including young men in prison and underrepresented young women. He is active in a range of pro bono roles, sitting on the Advisory Board for ‘Culture at Work’- a leading global Coaching company that offers Coach Training to Senior Executives worldwide; and as a Trustee for two charities Peer Power’ and Jubilee ‘Primary School’. In this conversation Stephen and Jeffrey use their own relationship as a model for exploring what inclusion really means and how diversity is wasted when inclusion isn’t present. The intention of their work is to help people in organizations feel safe to speak up and shift outdated, limiting ways of working to prevent the organization culture from truly thriving. Ultimately, they want to ensure that everyone who is at the party is invited to dance. So without further ado I bring you Stephen Light and Jeffrey Wotherspoon. 

 

KC – Jeffrey, Stephen, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast, I’m delighted to have you back on the show. 

 

JV – thank you Katie, delighted to be here. 

 

SL – Yeah, absolutely.

 

KC – So, I’d love to find out more about your Worldwork project. What started this project and this journey together? 

 

JV – Steve, I think you’re best to start on this one. 

 

SL – Ok yeah, brilliant. So, Katie, with the death of George Floyd there was like a real global shake up and wake up for people, it really shook the world and one of the things it did personally for me is make me pay attention to some of my own tendencies towards racism. I grew up in South Africa, like Marita, I grew up in an apartheid era. I was conditioned to be a racist just based on the environment and the people I was around and although I wasn’t a practicing racist when living in the UK, I would probably say I was kind of epithetic. I wasn’t involved. I was just kind of neutral. And that wasn’t good enough for where the world was going. And so my actions that I took was I joined a sole group, there were nine of us, ten of us initially and then we’re now down to eight, who’d been meeting for 2 years to support each other to address how we can be more of anti-racist, actively assisting and helping people have the conversations, the messy conversations, they need to have. So that was my personal work and then what I decided to do through doing my ORSC Certification has come up with this Worldwork project. Initially which was let’s talk about race. And through various connections I got to meet Jeff and Jeff and I have shaped where we are now with our Worldwork project. 

 

JW  -Nice, nice. And, yeah, again, I think meeting Steve came at an interesting time, I suppose for me personally and my career as a coach and a trainer, and doing some sort of team and group coaching which has really increased now. I just had this sense that I was at a particular place in my career, so I was loving what I was doing but it was much of the same and I knew that there was more, I knew that there was another level. I wasn’t quite sure what it looked like, but more than that I wasn’t sure how to get there and I was really just wanting a connection with someone, you know. Someone who worked at that level, just to be able to speak too, ask questions, learn from. And then that’s when someone that Steve and I both know, Katrina Hory, she was also on the sole group reached out to me and said you know, I’m in this group, there’s a gentleman called Steve and he would like to connect with someone. Someone from the Black community. He told me a bit about his personal life background and Steve and the rest of them, their commitment to anti-racism, and also shared about Steve’s professional background as well. And I just thought wow, this is in some ways what I’ve been looking for from a professional standpoint, and I think from the racial standpoint, following the death of George Floyd I also stepped into action, probably reluctantly, but it was a burning passion within me because one of the things I noticed, on social media especially, was just what I would term a ‘race war’. A polarization between Black people and white people on platforms such as Twitter where people were really just arguing. Or you’d have particular threads with only white people in it or only Black people and it was just one narrative, and that narrative was negatively skewed and just going in a direction that I thought wasn’t helpful or useful at all. You know, I thought actually we’re supposed to be moving forward, I think in 2020, and it seems as though we’re moving backwards. And what I just noticed from reading the comments was nobody was talking. People weren’t actually interested in hearing another perspective. They were just, it seemed they were just interested in saying what they thought. And I thought people just really need to speak, you know, Black and white people are not evil. You know, talk to each other. You’re people, you’re human beings, just have a word. Listen to each other. Try and be open to learn. So I facilitated a conversation with people in the community which I had no idea how it would go but I thought I’d give it a try. That went fantastically well, Kat attended that and then I started going that more corporately. So, in terms of from my perspective, I do a lot of work around anti-racism and, you know, my simplest lens for doing that work, what I primarily want to achieve at the most basic level is just dialogue. So of course when Steve wanted to reach out and have dialogue I thought yes, let’s have dialogue. I never stepped into it to teach Stephen anything, but really to hear from Stephen, to learn from Steve and also to share with Steve. You know, one of the things I really respect about him is how honest and open he is about where he was at and where he wants to go. And you’re just not gonna hear that from people. But yeah, Steve and I have had very real, honest and useful, fruitful conversations around the topic of race and anti-racism. 

 

KC – I just want to congratulate you first for leaning into relationship, both of you. And that sounds like such a curious space - I just stepped into it not trying to teach him anything – and wow, what I imagine is possible from that space, if only we could all lean in in that way to relationship and to difference, I guess, and diversity. 

 

JW – Yeah. Precisely. 

 

SL – Yeah. Yeah.

 

KC – So, tell me how your relationship evolved from this point, you’ve sparked this initial connection, you’ve both got something that seemed interesting from the other but you’re leaning in with this curiosity, how did it sort of follow on from that moment? 

 

SL – I remember our initial meetings and our initial conversations, and I was like… what can I say, what can’t I say? And you know, there was, I think about my approach and I think there was a real like watershed moment that Jeffery kind of highlighted for me. I was sharing with Jeffrey that I’m going to be a strong anti-racist and I’m going to call people out on their racist tendencies. Now, I’ve got a lot of friends who live in South Africa, who grew up in a very rainbow nation, white, Black, mixed race, and there was a lot of stuff on social media where people are just ignorant and lack the education about how they are showing up. And so I was actively calling stuff out and I noticed, the way Jeffery was saying, the real like tension and butting of heads. And Jeffrey’s perspective of you know, dialogue, just listen to people, stop trying to challenge people and make them wrong. It’s just who they are. And so that shifted me and that helped me with Jeffrey, just share stuff. Like one of the things I never wanted to be perceived with Jeff was this white saviorism. Hey Jeff, I’m here to save you and such. No, that was all bullshit and I was very open with Jeff about that. And I said straight up to him, if I ever say anything, I have a microaggression or if there’s something that comes out of my mouth that’s based on a POS conditioning, please, you need to point that out for me because I want to be able to be aware of that and change it and grow. So that, I mean our relationship, I felt, well I noticed I was uncomfortable then it just kind of blossomed and the stuff we shared and how open we were with each other was just amazing. 

JW – Yeah, definitely.

 

KC – What a skillful use of the design team alliance, up front then designing around that, because do you think sometimes when things are uncomfortable for us, we either walk in the other direction or we tiptoe around it. To use your word – awkward and not sure what to say. But actually when you designed around it, call me out, let me know, suddenly now you can have a frank, open conversation. 

 

JW – Mmm. 

 

SL – Absolutely, yeah. 

 

KC – Jeffrey, what about for you. What was that like for you just being on the receiving end of someone being a bit awkward about what can I say, what can’t I say? 

 

JW – So I remember the, you know, very first meeting with Steve and I just suppose even me going into it I just thought yeah, this might be a bit awkward, how’s this going to be because this relationship essentially is forming because of race. Ie. Black and white. That’s the reason why this is starting but we both want something here and what does that look like and I don’t think Steve and I have ever had a relationship form intentionally in the way before. So I didn’t know what to expect. But, just going on the Zoom screen and meeting Stephen for the first time and being greeted with a smile, just a big warm smile, it starts to do things already. And you know the reality is, there’s one race, the human race, but we’re different tones and skin complexions and colors, so Steve and I connected on the human level first which I think is most important, that’s the place I come from, we connected on a human level first. Then we realized, yes, it’s different context, you know? I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term social graces, it’s by Jon Burnham and Alison, oh gosh, I don’t want to get her name wrong and so many people get her name wrong, I really shouldn’t do it, but maybe Alison ____12:43____ something. And the graces just stand, you know it’s a pneumonic, so gender, race, religion, age ability, appearance, class, culture… does that make sense? The social graces. So the grace is a pneumonic and we all have our context, you know, social graces are at play. So for me, when we were able to connect on a human level first we were able to talk about our social graces and the differences. And yeah, the design team alliance essentially. We didn’t do it in a formal way but we did it nonetheless. And we said, we agreed why we’re both here and what we were both wanting from it, and then we proved it. You know, you have to test it, you have to prove it. We had some conversations and I’d say we had some challenging conversations. None of us were upset, they were just honest and open and it’s challenging, you know, why are you thinking like that? And essentially the situation Steve spoke about with some of his friends and stuff, I was listening to Steve and I could see the tussle. I could see the tussle of Steve, very serious about being anti-racist and taking active steps, and then seeing other people on social media etc, expressing how they feel and Steve wanting to do something about it. But at the same time one of the things I noticed is although Steve was genuine in it, there seems to me to be almost like an outside pressure, an external pressure, and I just had to sort of have the conversation – who and what is this for? And essentially I said one person in particular, that’s your friend. You know. You challenge your friends on social media and you might lose a long-term friend. Firstly, do you want that? So that’s a question that you have to answer. And secondly, no human being is going to receive an open challenge on social media in that way. Even if they’re wrong, they’re gonna be defensive about it and withdraw so that’s not going to go well, so what you need to focus on Steve is the message. And actually yes, challenge your friend on what he’s saying but privately. You know, say let’s have a conversation. And you know this status you’ve put up, can we talk about it? And then you can win hearts and minds and guess what, you don’t lose a long-standing friend, and that was the approach. 

 

KC – So fascinating. It makes me think of, I think it’s Will Awe’s book Status Gameand about how we have virtue status and so often we need someone to put the mirror up, to show us that we’re actually not doing that maybe for the reasons we sort of say we are, you know, why are we bragging about giving to charity or what is the intention behind that. And Stephen I wonder, what was the impact of sort of having that revealed to you by Jeffrey? 

 

SL – My intention and my impact, there was a disconnect. Because my intention was to be a strong anti-racist and to help people have those conversations. The way I was doing it was shutting people down, losing friends, creating defensiveness. And Jeffrey’s words immediately shifted my approach which then aligned my intention and impact. Because the conversations I have would have would have been in private and I would have helped people see things slightly differently, and a lot of questions and curiosity to understand where they’re coming from and why. There are a lot of reasons why people say things that they say and their approach, and that helped me shift a few people’s minds, open their minds to maybe a different way of seeing things, some of their approaches and the way that they were coming across, and it all came from just being more curious and aligning my intent and impact. That was the impact of what Jeffrey shared with me. 

 

KC – It’s very powerful because it’s, it’s very hard to get close with opinions you don’t like, right? And so – 

 

JW – That’s it. 

 

KC – How does one lean in? I guess that is probably something you discussed quite a bit but when something’s really hard and divisive, how to lean in with curiosity in those moments? 

 

JW – Yeah, so one of the things I’ll share with you Katie is just the weekend gone I did geography in the ORSC series and I, you know, their term is spiritual warriorship and for all the ORSCers out there, that’s what I would say, it’s that spiritual warriorship, and for everyone else that’s thinking what the hell is he talking about – you need to prepare yourself. You know, it’s possible you may not be ready. You may not be ready to lean in and don’t. Don’t lean in because you’re not ready. Some things you’re not able to handle. It’s too much of a trigger, it’s too sensitive for you. And then, if you can get another perspective or give it some time, then you expect it to be challenging and nevertheless you lean in. You know for me, it’s always about the outcome. What’s the outcome here? That’s how I sort of mentalize it and that’s what helps me, what’s the outcome I’m hoping to achieve and just really that empathy and perspective taken. 

 

SL – Yeah and I remember, Jeff, you sharing with me as so. Trust your intention. Who are you as a person, what’s your intention? And lean into that. And why, why do you want to have these conversations? That awareness, for me, helped me in those moments when there is the potential for polarity that’ll create defensiveness, my approach became curiosity instead of calling people out. And that for me is how you lean in, it’s just being aware, connecting with why – why am I doing this? Because it’s important that people can have conversations about race, inclusion, whatever those difficult subjects are, without creating that polarity, defensiveness and pushing away. And that’s what I was doing with my approach and that awareness helped me shift that. 

 

JW – And you know, Stephen, thank you for reminding me of that and wouldn’t you say that’s just so powerful from your perspective, because when I take that perspective I hear the conversations differently. You know, I don’t easily get offended because I’ve got my why, I’ve got my reasons. 

 

SL – Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, if I think about a single door and then a big bay of folding, sliding doors, when you come from the perspective of this is the way that it is and you’re wrong you’ve only got one door that you’re going to allow information in. When you come from the perspective of let me hear you, trust my intent, that curiosity allows for so many views and you hear people. You can really hear what’s going on for them. So yeah, Jeff was hugely powerful for me.

 

JW – Yeah. And you know, just one of the things I’d say as well, it’s just something I always hold in mind – people’s hearts and minds don’t change through shame and guilt. You know, my heart and mind is unlikely to change through shame and guilt. It may, but generally I’ve found it doesn’t work that way for people. But actually empathy and perspective taken, that’s what changes people’s hearts and minds. You know, when people can actually understand what it’s like for another person or see themselves in the shoes of the other person, then for me the job is already done. So that’s essentially why I listen as well. Because that’s what gives me the information to really understand where this person’s at. And nine times out of ten I don’t meet people on the extreme end of the spectrum. Nevertheless, some of the things they may say may be inappropriate, but they’re not actually on the extreme end. Nine times out of ten it’s down to ignorance and, you know, I still have the conversations, I still challenge people, and sometimes they’re not ready to accept it. They’re not offended at me but they’re not really listening to me. Or what I should say is I probably sew the seed because the next time we have the conversation they’re further down the line. And I think that’s quite powerful too. 

 

KC – That’s so powerful that idea of no one’s going to change through shame and guilt, it just triggers a sense of fight or flight and we wanna just fight for our corner then and it’s such an interesting way of thinking about how to lean in, and actually how to create positive ripple effects of change in the world. It’s not gonna be through damning people and saying oh, you shouldn’t say that, it’s bad. We know this, don’t we? Inherently as children we don’t like being told we’re wrong and yet as adults, for some reason, we feel like we can go shouting on Twitter at other people about their wrongdoings. 

 

SL – Absolutely. And as you hear Jeffrey speak, that’s why I love him. And that’s why I love working with this guy, you can hear his heart come out when he speaks. 

 

JW – Thank you Steve. 

 

SL – That’s why we will have an impact in the world. Yeah, you’re welcome. 

 

KC – You too have a very wise third entity, it’s a very open, empathetic space. DO you do any co-leading together because I imagine it would be magic. 

 

JW – Yeah, and it has been you know. So I had an anti-racist project and speaking to the organization, I was working with them already, then some stuff came up about potential co-facilitation and I said listen, say no more, I’ve got the person for you. And I said this is a case of opposites attract and I brought Steve there, it was with some leaders, and there were over 90 leaders there so, you know, let’s call it about a hundred leaders, on Zoom, and the feedback was resounding. And you know, the most powerful thing about it is, let’s say about 100 leaders, probably about 80% white, and to hear Steve speak so honestly and authentically, questions were flowing through the chat and leaders were touched. And people could see themselves in Steve and were just getting lightbulb moments. But the most important thing is it prompted action within those leaders to take more responsibility and that’s where allyship comes in. And that’s why allyship is so important, because look anti-racism work, Jeffrey steps in, and for the listeners who may not know I’m Black, so Jeffrey steps in doing anti-racism work, why’s he doing it? Because he’s Black. Steve steps in to do some anti-racism work, well why’s he doing it? What’s his motivation? And, you know, perhaps it shouldn’t be this way but sometimes it is – people may shoot the message because of the messenger, so for Steve to take the stance he took and to come on and, you know, we co-facilitate and that, it touched a lot of white leaders in a way that my message probably wouldn’t have got through. So that’s when I invited Steve to co-lead with me. 

 

SL – That was a powerful one. And then Jeff and I have run some sessions for corporates and I will share that if you think about how you extend trust to people, you’re either a cat or a dog person. So, a dog person immediately trusts – yeah, yeah, we’re going for a walk, yeah, yeah. That’s like you immediately trust people. I’m a cat person. If you call a cat they’re gonna go like what do you want? I’m sitting here, I’m comfortable, I’m not coming over there. You need evidence, and so I’m a cat person, I need a lot of evidence. But how quickly that happened with us, Jeff. And so we’ve run sessions together where we co-facilitate for corporate clients and we can lean into each other, and I know that if I’m going to forget something Jeffrey’s right there and he’ll add a level that sometimes I wouldn’t even have got to. So we feed off each other when we facilitate together. 

 

JW – Yeah. 

 

KC – Such power when we lean into the diversity that exists within all of our relationships. And I was co-leading recently with a leader who was very different from me, different age, different gender, different ethnicity, and the group loved that we leant into that. It wasn’t that we just avoided, to your point Jeffrey, we designed around that upfront – so we’ve got a difference in age here, how do we want to be witj that? And actually then it becomes the magic of the relationship, of the third entity, as opposed to this sort of elephant in the room. And it becomes this ally as opposed to something that gets in the way of the work really working. How have you found that magic sort of ripple out into other organizations and teams you’ve been working with? Have you noticed the sort of magic of your third entity spread wider? 

 

JW – Yeah, I mean look, I think they love it. I think they really, really love it. You know, some of the work that Steve’s talking about that we did in corporates, it wasn’t anti-racism specific but just the dynamics of our relationship, the differences that people could see as well as a the similarities and how we work together and how we’ve got each other and the energy we create with one another, as well as the banter, amazing. Steve and I are even different in delivery styles so we bring a different balance of energy. Steve is an active man in life in general and he brings that activity and that energy to the delivery, and I would say I’m quite calm in my nature and the way I do things and I can see how that balances out quite well as well, in all out delivering facilitation. So all the feedback we’ve got from clients as in the client who perhaps commissions the work or the actual delegates, the participants themselves, it’s always been positive. 

 

KC – I have to ask, do you think this conversation between you that started around Black and white has led into you leaning into all these other differences around how you show up in the world and seeing them as an ally in your relationship as opposed to something maybe to be fearful of. Oh, he’s really energized when he delivers or oh, he’s really quiet – do you think it’s allowed for that leaning into happen more organically? 

 

SL – Yeah. I do. I just think based on who we are as individuals and the complete acceptance of our nature, how we show up, our skill level – we feed off each other. To think that in terms of my coaching, I’ve been coaching for so many years and Jeff is a little bit newer to it, and yet I learn something from him every day and I know I will always learn something from him, every conversation. So us being able to just organically lean into that and learn from each other and support each other, that allows for such a diverse impact with people. I think they really notice that, which I think is really powerful. 

 

JW – I would agree. 

 

KC – What a gorgeous dynamic you’ve created together, and I kind of hope this is a microcosm for what’s possible out there in the world. So, what do you want to share with the listeners around sort of your learnings from this relationship that it sounds like continues to evolve professionally and personally, what’s your biggest takeaway from this journey together? 

 

SL – I’m going to talk through the lens of vulnerability, vulnerability and messiness. If I think about how our relationship started and where it’s at now and thinking about where it’s going to go is that in order to lean into creating a relationship with someone that’s maybe very different from you, whether it’s social, whether it’s race, whatever the difference, is that be vulnerable, be who you are, share what;’s going on for you. If you can lean into that you can create a space where anything is possible. And embrace messiness because there was no way that our relationship would get to where it is if we weren’t willing to be messy. If I wasn’t willing to take feedback from Jeff and Jeff wasn’t willing to take feedback from me, or be open to like I have to lean in and tell Steve this, we had to lean into that. If you can embrace vulnerability and messiness, I genuinely believe that anything is possible. Even if you are conditioned in a certain way which you are, you’ll be open to learning and experiencing things differently and shifting. 

 

JW – Definitely, definitely. I like that Steve. Steve said vulnerability and messiness, and I say intentionality and respect. And when I think about the relationship Stephen and I have, nothing is done by accident. You know, generally when people get into relationships, perhaps they may just happen, you know even when we get into romantic relationships, maybe we’re intentional in the beginning and then we start to become unintentional then issues happen, right? In my marriage, because I know that, you know, my wife and I we’re very intentional. And in my relationship with Steve I know I’ve been very intentional and I know Steve has been very intentional, and with that intention comes good things. We’re designing, we’re creating what we want in our relationship, in our partnership together. All with the lens of respect. All through the lens of respect. And therefore Steve and I, we’ve never been offended essentially, because when constructive feedback comes we understand the place it’s coming from. And you know, even when Steve and I were talking about the Worldwork project, he had some ideas, I said that’s crazy. You know. How can you go into a corporate and pitch this stuff, it’s not gonna work, you know? And we get to the point where we can be direct with each other but he knows the place and the position it’s coming from, so I’m very open to feedback from Steve because I know it’s in my best interest and I see it as development. 

 

KC – So it sounds like it’s very much a continually evolving relationship and with that your design team alliance, it’s not something that’s static. You’re always redesigning and seeing where the other is in that moment. 

 

JW – Definitely.

 

SL – And sometimes that just shows up and that becomes part of our designed alliance, because of our intentionality, our respect, the vulnerability we bring to it and, you know, we embrace that messiness. It’s just who we are as a third entity. 

 

KC – I feel like there’s so much wisdom here for every kind of relationship and I’m wondering, have either of you taken pieces from this relationship learning into other parts of your life? 

 

JW – One of the things I’ve taken from the relationship with Steve into other areas of my life is generosity. Steve has been extremely generous with me. I met Steve, he was a busy man, but that doesn’t matter. Steve has, again, he’s been doing this for a couple of decades, maybe, Steve? I think I’m quite experienced but I’m not yet at a decade, probably 7 years or so, so sometimes I get some new contracts, don’t know where my head is at, not too sure my left from my right but I know who to call now. And Steve has been extremely generous with his time because sometimes we’ve spoken and I know he’s been busy, then I sort of go at him and he’s made time, how he’s done it I don’t know. I haven’t even asked. But he’s been there when I knew he had some agenda on. So he’s been extremely generous with his time. His knowledge, as well as content, Steve has actually given me content and spoken me through it. And even quite recently, Steve has been very generous with his finances. You know, Steve and I, our relationship has transcended professional to personal and therefore, you know, I’ve let him into my life, he’s let me into his life, families etc. And I’m soon to be a first time dad, so we had our baby registry gift list and, you know, I sent the list to Steve and his wife, we got a very generous financial contribution which my wife and I were thinking woah! We were not expecting that at all! So I’ve definitely taken generosity from Stephen. There’s many that I mentor, some officially, some unofficially. You know when I say officially, they’ve come to me and say please mentor me, and some of them have just, they just keep in touch but we’re not friends, it’s not a friendship so I know what they want. And I try my best to be generous as well, where I can. 

 

KC – I’m hearing so much abundance and the growth mindset within this relationship. The fact that there’s sharing of content, time, resources, energy… that’s such a wonderful way of being in the world as opposed to that fixed, closed, worrying about who’s going to be competition. Wow. How expansive. 

 

SL – Hugely. And I’ll share briefly that my takeaway from Jeff is about intentionality and the way Jeff is, and Jeff, for you, the way Jeff is with people but especially his wife, the intentionality about creating that relationship, that’s kinda, I’ve been married a lot longer than Jeff and it’s kinda woken me up, hey, what am I taking for granted and what do I need to be a bit more intentional about? And so I’ve taken that on board, which Jeff probably doesn’t know yet but yeah. That intentionality, not only in the conversations I have with people but in my marriage, I’ve picked up from Jeff. 

 

JW – Thank you Steve. 

 

SL – You’re welcome. 

 

KC – It’s so wonderful. There’s so much circular learning and it feels like it’s just a gift that keeps on giving, this relationship. 

 

JW – Definitely, definitely. 

 

SL – Oh yeah.

 

KC – It’s been an absolute delight to dance with you both in conversation today, and this really is the podcast that speaks to the title of the show, Relationship Matters, so thank you. Thank you both for leaning into that principle and I hope that you continue to send out the ripples in all the ways that you are in the world, it’s wonderful. 

 

SL – Thank you Katie. 

 

JW – Definitely. Katie, it’s been a pleasure, it’s been a pleasure speaking with you. 

 

SL – Absolutely.

 

[Music outro begins 34:45] 

 

KC - The Worldwork project is a key element in the ORSC certification journey. It allows students to apply the ORSC materials in the real world and develop themselves as change agents. At CRR Global we hold all our students as change agents and train them to be conscious of what impact they want to make in their world. We believe that everybody’s impact –whether conscious or unconscious— sends ripples out into the world. It’s up to all of us, as world workers, to keep our communities safe and healthy. For more information about Worldwork and ORSC certification do check out CRRGlobal.com/course/ORSC-certification. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole.