In this episode, Katie talks with Frank Uit de Weerd, CRR Global faculty member and co-author of Systems Inspired Leadership, about the benefits of a systems inspired approach to organizational change. Across the conversation, they discuss:
Frank Uit de Weerd is an organizational psychologist and executive/team/systems coach with extensive experience in leadership development, business innovation and cultural transformation. He builds on more than 25 years of international experience in Human Resources with Royal Dutch Shell, where he held assignments in Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, UK), Africa (Gabon) and Asia (Malaysia). He believes that it’s critical for organizations to create a work environment where people feel safe to bring their whole person and where they are supported and encouraged to step into their magnificence. These so-called human-centered organizations create superior results and are key for building a better, more conscious and sustainable world.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
In this episode, Katie talks with Frank Uit de Weerd, CRR Global faculty member and co-author of Systems Inspired Leadership, about the benefits of a systems inspired approach to organizational change. Across the conversation, they discuss:
Frank Uit de Weerd is an organizational psychologist and executive/team/systems coach with extensive experience in leadership development, business innovation and cultural transformation. He builds on more than 25 years of international experience in Human Resources with Royal Dutch Shell, where he held assignments in Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, UK), Africa (Gabon) and Asia (Malaysia). He believes that it’s critical for organizations to create a work environment where people feel safe to bring their whole person and where they are supported and encouraged to step into their magnificence. These so-called human-centered organizations create superior results and are key for building a better, more conscious and sustainable world.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
FW - Frank Uit de Weerd
[Intro 00:00 – 00:06]
KC – Hello and warm welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode I'm talking with Frank Uit de Weerd, CRR Global Faculty member and co-author of Systems Inspired Leadership, about the benefits of a systems inspired approach to organizational change. Across this conversation we discuss the importance of preparing for change, ways of working more skillfully with emerging change, edge crossing and helping organizations to look for minimal viable edges, the difference between change management and change leadership; and the importance of slowing down. Frank Uit de Weerd is an organizational psychologist and executive teams and systems coach with extensive experience in leadership development, business innovation, and cultural transformation. He built on more than 25 years of international experience in human resources with Royal Dutch Shell, where he held assignments in Europe, Africa and Asia. He believes that it's critical for organizations to create a work environment where people feel safe to bring their whole person and where they're supported and encouraged to step into their magnificence. These so called human centered organizations create superior results and are key for building a better, more conscious and sustainable world. So I bring you Frank Uit de Weerd talking about systems inspired organizational change.
KC - Frank, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. I am delighted to have you back on the show.
FW - Thank you. It’s so nice to see you as well.
KC - We have a big topic today; Systems Inspired Organizational Change. Given that organizational change feels a bit like an HR buzzword right now, I want to start by asking you what are the benefits of a systems inspired approach to organizational change?
FW – There’s are a lot of things already there. First of all, we talk about organizations, you see a lot of focus we have in ORSC is around relationships, it's about teams, but we’re talking about organizations. The first thing is, if people could look at organizations already as systems, that would be a big benefit. We are so trained in seeing problems, as we analyze them, and their parts are not good. Can we also see that all things are being interconnected and that the relationship between the entities, between the parts, are more important than the entity sets itself? So that's the system's approach. There's so much systems blindness, Katie, it's amazing. We are not trained in it. And systems inspired, there the whole notion of the third entity comes in. Can we see an organization or an ecosystem as a living system? Living system means it has a heart, it beats, it has intelligence, it has needs. If you start approaching an organization like that, everything will change.
KC - I love that term you just used - systems blindness. I've not heard that. I wonder, do you feel a lot of the changes that are going on right now in some of the bigger organizations in the world are systems blind?
FW – I really do, and it's also very natural. In ORSC and also in systems inspired leadership, we have this famous systems rule - everyone is right, partially. That is such a groundbreaking approach. Because normally we experience the way we perceive things as the absolute truth and therefore to understand that based on the experience of others the world is different and you could have a different experience, that there may be truth and wisdom in it, is really difficult for people. That, I think, explains a lot around systems blindness.
KC – Okay. So, thank you firstly for normalizing that this doesn't come naturally to us humans.
FW – Not at all!
KC – I guess I wonder, does this require quite a lot of preparation upfront? Because if it's not something we do on autopilot I'm presuming that, unless we plan for it, we're just gonna go into our old way of doing things.
FW - Yeah. So, for me the whole notion of being aware is really important, Katie. So, creating awareness around it and also, like you say, it may not be maybe already more difficult, the way we are as human beings, but also remember our educational system. So, we focus on problems and problems are being solved by analyzing them. You look at the parts and then you change the parts and that's the solution. That's how we’re trained and there's also one solution to every problem. You can also approach it differently and I think nature is a big, big example for me. The way nature works with change, it's much more organic, it starts small, it starts in the front line, very local. Remember, nature has already been able to produce life for 3.8 billion years, that’s much longer than 100+ years of management theory.
KC – That’s such a good point. So, if I am someone who is leading 1000+ people through a big change, what do I need to do upfront in order to successfully prepare for a systems inspired change?
FW - I think it already starts by being quite clear on what's the purpose of the organization and the purpose of the work, really truly referring to what is the why? What's the North Star? What are we after? What's the direction? Going beyond. Often in many commercial organizations you have the profits, profit is an indicator of byproducts, that it's around adding value, creating value to a set of stakeholders. So being clear around that is really important. And if you look at an organization of 1000 people that may also be globally dispersed, it's quite a complex thing. So, another tip I would give is get a micro cosmos of your organization to start talking about it because if you have a group of people, it could be 10 or 50, the patterns of the system and the wisdom of the system is often also there. It's really a like a kaleidoscope. So start talking about it, and then based on that evolve into where you want to go. Maybe the last point there is also allow for local freedom. If you're clear on what you need to do, so this is what we need to achieve together. Also allow people on the ground to determine how they do it. I can see that tokens are being made, everything is prescribed and if things go wrong, even more controls are put up and it really stifles people and it takes out, let's say, successful change. So, these three things that are coming up and it's broad. I don't know how it sounds to you, Katie?
KC – No, it really lands because also what I'm thinking about is how we live in this VUCA world: volatile, uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And I can imagine someone sitting down and having this perfect change plan, this map for the change, but then two seconds later the whole environment has changed. So, how do we work with this emergent change that many of us are dealing with on a daily basis because it's quite different and the pace is very fast, compared 50 years ago.
FW - Yeah, it’s great that you brought that up. The change is very, very fast. And the good news or the bad news is that it will not change. It's slow. It's a wealth of hope in the future. So here, self-awareness of leaders, of people in the organizations are becoming really important because if you get in the stress, if you feel the sense of urgency, you become very reactive. You say, ‘let's do this, let's do that’. So, the ability to slow down is really being compromised, it's not very natural. And that's the invitation for leaders. Also, in a fast changing world where you need to be quick and agile, being able to slow down to listen to all voices in the system and all between brackets, of course, if you have 10,000 people you can't hold everyone but you have micro gospels, you can get data and then see what's the most intelligent move we can make? In the ORSC language: what's the minimum viable edge we can adopt? I think it's easy to talk about it in theory, to do it is more difficult. But the good news is the moment you make a change, you’ll immediately get feedback. ‘Okay, the system is being revealed, oh, that's working, that’s not working’ and then you adjust. And I would also advocate for a more agile approach, step by step, minimal viable edges, not crossing an edge that's actually too big to take.
KC - That's interesting because I do think that when we think of organizational change, we think of this big mountain that we have to get 10,000 people over. You’re suggesting that we go for the minimal viable edge and cross lots of little hills as opposed to the mountain.
FW - Yeah, that's absolutely a much more viable approach. And of course, it's not always possible. I can well see if you want to centralize some processes, in particular support functions processes, like order to cash, or if you want people processes or IT services, a lot of support functions that basically have central processes in their IT systems that are supporting that need to have that layer, but still allow for some degrees of freedom locally, because then you really will be able to get a fit for purpose performance in a certain niche of your ecosystem.
KC - So, what do you see happening when organizations try and push people over an edge that's too big?
FW – In ORSC we say they are getting in a realm.
KC – They are.
FW – Or they’re getting numb, there’s a lot happening. If you push them too hard people will be disengaged, they will be confused. They also will, maybe not intentionally, but the performance will go down. It may even be that people will leave the company. Recently I worked with someone in an organization that was taken over and this organization used to be very purpose driven and it was now taken on by another company that was much more focused on shareholder value. There was a real big focus on getting more profits in and getting the costs down, and much more of a sense of control, for example, hybrid working, and I'm talking from the Netherlands where it’s quite normal here. The hybrid working was stopped so you will need to be in the office four or five days a week, and there were these small things like they had fruit and they had cookies and all these types of things. You may think that it was part of the culture and then it was cut and within a couple of months, this whole organization imploded. A couple of months. So much value was being destroyed.
KC - Wow. That's huge. I'm noticing it a lot with my clients in the tech space right now. I think there's been a lot of forcing over edges and they're feeling very demotivated, disengaged and looking elsewhere. So, it's almost like the change actually has the opposite effect sometimes, if you try and push it too fast it causes people to leave and it actually decreases profits and efficiency.
FW – No, it’s populational if you think about it.
KC - Yeah, it's not.
FW - And I think, and it’s also what I love about the systems inspired leadership and the ORSC approach is, basically can you unleash the energy that’s there? We have this magic phrase: what's trying to happen? Where is the energy? Where do people have energy for? What is it that they want to do? You see your whole leadership style changes because it's not so much what I think is needed, but it's sensing, it's creating a context for people that they say, ‘we need to go that way’. Okay, that's where the energy is, let's trust it. Let's check whether it's aligned with the purpose of the organization, if so, let's go and see what's come out. Can we replicate it? And if it's fails, that’s okay. But we still have data that that's not the way to do it. We may know now what's our next step?
KC – So then I wonder, how as leaders do we balance being open to this emergence, this emergent change, and also managing the change because that has to be a dance and quite a delicate one.
FW - Yeah. I think I would rather use the how do you lead the change rather than manage the change. As leadership required in terms of helping to create the better future that is there, there's some leading required. There's also leading required to create this context, to be able to listen. So, how to do that as a leader? I've spoken about the word awareness before. In ORSC, in systems inspired leadership, we talk a lot about meta skills. I think meta skills are really the bridge between your being and your doing. For example, a meta skill of curiosity is so important and an antidote to so many things. The notion of deep democracy, that every voice has wisdom. So, for me, for a leader to be aware of that, to be aware of his or her role around it. I think I love those quotes around ‘to be the change you want to be’ or ‘how you are in the interior will be a reflection how the exterior looks like’. So, being aware of your own being, your meta skills, the energy, your brain - the awareness is really key.
KC – I think you made a really interesting distinction there between managing the change and leading the change. Talk more about this in terms of the difference between a manager and a leader, say.
FW - The manager component is still much more from the control framework. So, there is a plan, and you check, and you make sure everything is properly planned, and the leading is more creating the space and giving the direction. So, we also often talk about doing the right things which is more the leadership components, versus doing things right which is more managing. And in a complex world if you have a really sought through change plan with all the details, it will not work because it's getting outdated the moment you put the last dot.
KC - Yeah, it's like companies who do five-year plans. Now they're becoming quite redundant, they need five month plans because of the pace of life.
FW – Yes, and I still feel to be clear on your North Star, your purpose, your direction, it’s really important. And that's not so much a product of one person thinking but very much connecting to the third entity, what is this organization for? How does it want to serve? How does it serve the stakeholders? And some people are better at connecting with this third entity. Some people have a bigger skill for it. But if you come not from your I but from the third entity, I think it will be much more powerful and it will also be a such an easy enabler for people to get aligned. So, getting the noses in the right direction that, if people are in the fault line, they don't need to think what's the detailed operating procedure here. No, this is what we are for, we are there to help, for example, elderly people to become more independent, so it's more autonomous. So, if that's our purpose how can I deploy it? How can I create that here in the moment for this particular patient or person?
KC – So, would you say then the leader leads with the why or from the why, and the manager leads from the what?
FW - Yeah, I think the manager leads more from the how.
KC – Ah, okay, that's interesting. Whereas the leader is open to lots of different ways of working?
FW – Yeah, I think there's more of the why in the what. You can see the why is really far out but if you if you start making it a bit more concrete, it quickly becomes the what. So, why and water becoming more in the same direction?
KC - Right. Whereas the manager spends too much time, perhaps, focused on the how which probably is constantly changing.
FW - But let me make that very concrete because I also see this often in organizations. As a leader or as a management team or a leadership team, you want to create plans and then plans, you want them to create into action and then you get results.
KC – Yes.
FW - If things go wrong, you think, ‘okay, I need to get better plans’. So, I need to get more information and you see already you're going to burden the organization around it: ‘get me this data, get me that data’. And these people, if you have a plan, they don't execute it well. You’ll say let's create more detailed instructions, you need to do it this way, you get the whole package. And if they don't deliver well, let's create a whole set of KPIs. And you see that’s the natural reflexes and the end result is that there’s so much control that it stifles the organization. I think there, the leading from the why/what that you were referring to, is much more powerful. Taking this example, I'm now working on a model from Steven Bengay, let's also give him the credit for it. Rather than being very detailed in your plan, be very clear what you want - what's the purpose? Bengay calls it the Spice Girl question. What is it that you really, really want? Be very clear what we want.
KC - That's great. What is it that you really, really want? I love that. What an excellent question.
FW - That's it. If you want people to be clear, ask them: ‘What did you hear? What is it that you understand you need to do?’ I also loved it with Bengay, how you implement things, how you do it, is not through detailed instructions and that set of KPIs because there can also be intelligent disobedience and that means sometimes you need to break the rule in order to get things done. It's obviously a fine line, I understand. But the reality on the ground is very different than you ever have imagined or could capture in the rules of procedures. So, how can you be intelligently disobedience? You see, it's a whole different approach.
KC – It is. What I'm hearing is that the systems inspired leader leans into the system to design the how, in many ways. It's not them telling other people ‘this is how it's going to look’, but actually the wisdom comes from the collective.
FW - Yeah. And it can also be the local collectives if they have a big organization. But, Katie, do you recognize this whole reflex of organizations or leaders to get more control? To also urgently push big changes through? Do you recognize that in your practice?
KC – Yeah, and what I see more and more is quite short-term thinking. It's almost as if we're very reactive when, say, the markets change. One of my clients is quite high up in a tech company and that company is making short term redundancies, but in the long term they're going to actually have to hire more people which will cost them more money. And so, it's interesting that short term reaction, it’s not a conscious response, and that has an impact then on the system, because he feels it in his teams, or the leaders that lead teams that he holds. And I think that's not systems inspired. That's the opposite of systems inspired.
FW - I love your use the word reactive there. We spoke about that before. Certainly, if there's a lot of pressure there's this tendency to be reactive. We have to pause. We have to take the 4 second rule. In one breath, counting to 10, it's an old wisdom that's still very valid. So, what is it, if this were an opportunity? What would that be? Can you also reframe the question? And then building on the collective wisdom, the voices of the system, and then slow can be conveyed far because you may break the pattern and you may do something where it's energy of people, where people get actually engaged, you're becoming a magnet for people to work as well, rather than imploring the organization.
KC - Yeah. I wonder, because often we talk about how the bigger the organization or the system, the more embedded the patterns are, and how do we as leaders slow down then? In an organization, that's very reactive and short term in its thinking, maybe firing people now, making redundancies now just so that they can save money in the short term but don't see the long-term implications of that. How do we slow down if the system is so fast?
FW - Yeah, I’ve experienced that a lot when working with clients because they feel they are part of a bigger organization. And of course, the standard responses is work with a top team and that's always true. So, work with the top team, help them to understand and their leadership will be very instrumental. But not all of us will be able to do so. I always make people aware, I say, ‘you’re part of a big system, so that's really a negative in the sense that you're part of it but there's also a positive given that everything is connected your change can also positively change the whole system, you can become an island of health’. And I think it is important in the circle of influence, we have to be clear what is it that you can influence? But in particular if there's a lot of pressure put on you, for example, if you're in a European leadership team in a global organization. If there’s a lot of pressure put on you how can you translate that so that you do not pass on this pressure on to your staff? How can you allow a moment to hear on the ground, to hear their voices of the system? How can you give more degrees of freedom for them to execute a plan in a way that makes sense for them? So that would be my invitation. I love the notion that if you change as a subunit in a big organization, it will also have a ripple effect.
KC - I think the ripple effect is really powerful and I think sometimes we come to systems work and we see, well, it's such a big system, what can I do? But we also see the interdependence of it and we see that ‘wow, what I do matters’, and it has an impact.
FW – Yeah and there's also something unpredictable there. You don't know what precisely it will be. But if everyone were to make those changes, something will change. Well set the butterfly that creates a big storm and makes changes. So, I always say keep that to my clients, and let's work from there and see what's possible. And if these instructions keep coming down from the top you can make the noises, you can give the feedback, but if they don't act it's beyond your control, so you better start working with it, then.
KC - And so I guess, even if we're in a system which isn't systems inspired in the way it's approaching change, we can still bring that stance.
FW - Yeah, absolutely. And it's not easy, but you need to start somewhere and that's also an invitation for employees. We talk about systems inspired leadership but, you know, we hold in systems inspired leadership that leadership is a role of the system and a leader, someone appointed in the leader role, has specific functions there but basically, it's to invite the employees also to step into their leadership and to collectively make the dance of where the system needs to go and how to how to operationalize things.
KC - So what could systems inspired organizational change look like? I guess, some of us might come away thinking that it'll be all rainbows and butterflies, and I imagine there's still challenges with the systems inspired approach, but what are some of the key benefits for us leaning into this way of navigating change?
FW - Now, for me, the first thing that comes up is that you're really clear on how you create or what's the added value that you want to create as an organization. Who are my key stakeholders? You’re not blindly saying it's only the customer, it's only the employees or mostly it's only the shareholder. And then by being part of that ecosystem, to really trust the intelligence of that living system. You know, that's one of our RSI, relationship system intelligence principles - systems are intelligent. How can we tap into it? Can you trust this living entity that it will move forward if you listen to it? So, the ability to listen, to slow down, to chat to the collective wisdom then implement it fast and see what's the impact. Get the feedback and move it forward? I think it will also create employees feel engaged, build a sense of belonging There's much more this focus on collaboration, on building the networks, the relationships or the web of connections. And what I've often heard from systems inspired leaders, they talk about their own role as being less stressful: ‘I don't need to do it all on my own, not everything is resting on my shoulders’. So, these are some of the features I see and I'm dreaming also, Katie. It’s so needed in the world; I see it everywhere.
KC - It is needed. I think we do need more of this because I hear a lot of people that understand the theory, the idea that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, that 1+1=3, but then I still see these leaders pulling everyone up the mountain. They're exhausted, the team are feeling unheard or not trusted in their intelligence and generative and creative ways, and it doesn't lead to a happy, healthy, productive system.
FW – Yeah, and as part of that everyone tries to get their own job done very well and that often means that you'll get your silo done but you’re not contributing well to the whole. I see that so often, that there's tensions between the organizations because they only look at their own patch.
KC - And imagine that sense of purpose, we'd feel if we could see that wider ripple effect, that we're not just an individual contributor, that actually, what we do matters.
FW - Yeah, therefore the purpose, the North Star is really important here. What's the positive magnet that we want to go to and start talking about it. That is something that is happening, fortunately, you see it's getting more and more. But still, I think we live in a society that ultimately is very profit driven, short term profit driven. The state of the world, it's quite worrying.
KC – So as opposed to being profit driven, does it need to be relationship driven?
FW – In my thinking it’s more being clear on how you create value. Value creation driven. And then indeed, in relation to key stakeholders that relation part comes in. A key stakeholder is also future generations, is also nature, it’s also small insects. So, all these are part of relations or stakeholders that you need to take into account. It’s the seven generations. So, for every decision think about seven generations before me, it could be people but also maybe living organisms, and seven generations after me.
KC – Wow.
FW - I think it's an old Native American practice. What would your decisions look like then?
KC - That is such a fascinating way of broadening what value means, because I think we hear the word value and often there's one sense of that which is ‘oh, it means how much money we make as a company’.
FW - Yes. So, we see it's much more clearer, operationalized, how to do it.
KC - Well it feels more holistic when we hold all these different stakeholders, as you mentioned
FW – It is very holistic. And still, you need to see how to balance things. So, it is still an art more than a science.
KC – Yeah. Thank you so much, Frank. This has been a fascinating conversation – there’s so much here, I feel like there’s another series on this! But thank you for opening the doorway in terms of how to approach organizational change from a systems inspired lens. I think we need this.
FW - Yeah, we need this so much. And that's the good thing, it's also something what's trying to happen. You see all these collaborative and collective approaches coming up. So, it is needed, but we need to be quick as well.
KC - I think we need that. We need that more and more Frank. Well, thank you for bringing this to my attention and our listeners. I will speak to you very soon. Take care.
FW - Thank you for, as always, facilitating such a nice conversation, Katie.
[Music outro begins 30:34]
KC - A huge thanks to Frank for that fascinating discussion. Here are my key takeaways. Seeing an organization as a living system helps us to realize that all things are interconnected. A living system means it has a heart. It has intelligence, it has needs. When we approach organizational change in this way, we can work much more effectively with organizations and help them navigate change in a more holistic way. Being clear on the purpose of the organization can help systems to navigate organizational change. It provides the system with a North Star or a why that helps to ground the system through emergent change. Self-awareness is essential for leading in a systems inspired way as it enables us to become less reactive and more responsive to emerging change. Slowing down is essential, as it helps us to stay aligned with our purpose and respond in a conscious and intentional way. Leading Change is quite different from managing change. You have to be the change you want to be by both considering not just what you're doing, but also how you're being as a leader. The energy that you bring is a key factor in the success of the change. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. CRR Global’s unshakeable belief is that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. For more information please visit CRRGlobal.com.
[Music outro 32:37 – end]