Ep.17 Hearing, seeing & sensing Systems

In this episode, Katie talks with CRR Global CEO and Co-Founder Marita Fridjhon about hearing, seeing and sensing Systems. The capacity to be present with systems is at the heart of Organizational and Relationship Systems Coaching and a coach or leader can do this through a variety of different channels, like seeing, hearing and feeling.  Across the episode Katie and Marita look at the benefits of truly listening, connecting with systems across different channels, sensing the emotional field of systems and tuning into wider systems. 

Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.


For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Relationship Matters Season 3 Episode 17

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman 

MF - Marita Fridjhon

[Intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matter, we believe relationship matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode I’m delighted to be talking with CRR Global CEO and co-founder Marita Fridjhon about hearing, seeing and sensing systems. The capacity to be present with systems is at the heart of Organizational and Relationship Systems Coaching and we can do this through a variety of different channels like seeing, hearing and feeling. We can bring this ability to the systems we work with or are close to, like that of our families or clients, and also to wider systems, like the world and our relationship with nature. Across the episode we discuss the benefits of truly listening to and listening in to systems, what it means to tune into systems across a variety of different channels, sensing the emotional field and tuning in to wider the systems. So without further ado I bring you the brilliant Marita Fridjhon. 

KC – Welcome back Marita. 

MF – Thank you back Katie, as always, it’s a pleasure to be here. 

KC – So we’re just laughing that we don’t really know where we’re going today, but we’re starting with the idea of hearing, seeing and sending the system. 

MF – Yes. The reason why we were struggling to find out where we’re going is that there is so much happening. So, from a leadership perspective really we’ve just put the hat of leader on again and everything that is emerging or happening with our teams, with what’s happening in the office, with Covid being done and then it seems like oh, but it’s not done, with signals of Global Warming and climate crisis in every area of the world, and all of those things from the perspective, from a systemic perspective of interdependence, if you pull one of the strings that is about fires on the West Coast, it impacts what is happening in other parts of the world, in the country. If you have one flood that happens in Germany with all the strategy surrounding that, it impacts the rest not only of Europe but other countries as well from an economic, social, any and all perspectives. So you can see how in the challenge for 2021, described by Deloyd was that of sustainability, when that research came out I don’t think we ever knew what was going to hit us as this year continued. So from that perspective is, when I sit in my leadership chair, where and how do I pay attention to which system? That’s the fire that all of us, I think, are sitting in as we navigate each day in the office and out of the office. 

KC – So do you think we’re sometimes pretending to be listening to the signs and the signals but not really leaning in, hearing what’s actually going on or looking to that bigger picture or that wider system? 

MF – I think there is truth in that Katie because I think for many people there is, from a neuroscience perspective we either fight or flight. So, in the flight situation where it feels like it’s just too difficult for us to navigate, all of that complexity on top of what I need to figure out every day, it’s just too complex for the ordinary citizen to really get into the science of what is happening behind the climate crisis, for example. It is annoying to be able to pay attention to what is happening politically globally. So from the flight perspective it’s just easier if I know the basics but then continue with my life, that’s what our brains do. From a fight perspective I can either fight by getting curious or getting into it, or I can fight by denying it. So it’s that annoying thing that we always are at choice. Whether we really listen, really feel, really sense. And that really is a question for every single one of us – leaders, people on the street, am I really listening to what’s happening around me? Am I really sensing and feeling what’s the impact of that? And do I really see and choose to see instead of turning a blind eye of bias towards it? 

KC – Yeah. I think what I look about this competency in particularly is it brings into play multi, it brings into play lots of channels. It’s not just focusing on seeing or hearing and that brings some other different level of intelligence. 

MF – Indeed. And again, I think it’s really important again for us to know and even as you said, just listen to it. Listening to this podcast. Just get an idea of when you have an awareness of your environment, right here, right now. Whether it’s in the office, whether it’s on the street, it doesn’t matter where it is. What is it that is the primary channel for you, are you noticing things that are happening around you? That’s seeing. Are you noticing how people are treating one another as they walk by, are they greeting and friendly or do they turn a shoulder? That’s seeing. Many of us, I’m very visually orientated, it’s one of those reasons why someone will ask did anybody see my pencil and I know where it is because visually I don’t miss a lot. There are other people that are sensing and very often all of us have all three. From a sensing perspective that is really feeling what is happening for other people, feeling what is happening in my body, and that’s a very difficult one to navigate sometimes because it is emotionally very draining and taxing. So what other ways in which I can feed and heal my own self as I sense. What is happening around me? So again, as you are listening, just notice, what is it that you have most awareness off? That which you see around you or that what you feel inside of you or that what you hear other people say? Do you hear in nature, in what’s happening out there? If you could imagine that you could hear the flames. So it’s those kinds… and again, from a Systems Inspired Leadership perspective, every single one of us is a leader of our own lives, we just are. And until we know where is it that I automatically go, I can’t quite really have conscious intention how I do it and I think that’s one of the reasons why people sometimes get overwhelmed. 

KC – Yeah, and as you were speaking I became aware of the fact that it’s probably very obvious when these qualities are absent. It brought to mind an example of a friend who’s going through a really challenging, life changing moment and he reflected on sort of the way his company and organization had dealt with it, and he said they’d dealt with it wonderfully in terms of compensation but nobody’s stopped me to ask how am I feeling? 

MF – Yes. I think that is one of the challenges that we have in the corporate world. And I think a lot of it has changed, I think Covid made some difference, but from a corporate perspective it is the first thing that we do is go strategic. How can I finance this, what is the structure of this, what is the next place that we need to go, it’s very strategic but absolutely needed. But, in order for strategy to be effective and to maintain the wellbeing and efficacy of our people, unless we stop and listen, to hear really what it is that people are experiencing. Because that’s the life giving thing that we can, in relationship, offer one another – even in business. That resets the mind, the spirit, everything so that I can continue. Because what’s happening out there is inevitable. Whatever’s happening with your friend, that is outside his/her locus of control. The only thing that anybody can help making him feel better is not only to help fix but to have a hand on the back and a shoulder that says talk to me, in the middle of all of this, what’s this like for you? 

KC – Yeah, and it sounds so obvious, perhaps so easy and I think that’s why it’s so often overlooked. That idea of listing and seeing the system, those seem like they’d be easier to tick off than sensing/feeling the system. But I think so often we’re not really listening and we’re not really seeing what’s going on. Our brains have that prediction mechanism in place in many ways to help us and to save us time, to make us efficient. But we are constantly predicting how we think people are going to show up and what they’re going to say and that, I think, limits our capacity sometimes to really lean in. 

MF – I think what you’re talking about is that thing that we often talk about in terms of what am I rehearsal? Is it the positive person or is it the negative rehearsal? And there’s some really interesting new research out around how our past relationship experiences shape the future ones. That’s that place and we know that if I experience this as a child with a parent or an authority figure, I’m going to dream a similar thing the next time I’m sitting… so you can see it’s absolutely true but we’re not always aware of these things, how our relationship past also is setting us up for the relationship rehearsals and every new situation we’re engaging in. I’m also sitting in an empathetic seat with every single one of us, leaders and team members and everybody in leadership of their own lives. Because one of the things that makes it sometimes the challenge for us to ask, what’s it like, is when we as particularly leaders and people that hold some rank and power, all of us do, but particularly in those roles there’s a fear of asking because the answer might be something that they have to fix. And that, I think, is the myth that we need to let go of. When I’m asking you, Katie, what’s it really like for you? I’m not looking and expecting or anticipating or asking because I think it is something that’s fixable. I’m simply offering to sit in the fire and talk about it, because that is a very different fix, if you’re looking for fixes, that’s a very different fix. It makes somebody present so that those things, those experiences, are not always ghosts. But it’s challenging because there’s already so much going on. Do I really want to ask somebody to tell me about what’s bad and what’s wrong with them as well? I can see how sometimes you’d go no, not going to do it. That becomes a habit. 

KC – Yeah, I did a podcast with Yuri recently about how listening is healing and how, quite often when we’re in pain, all we want is to be heard. We don’t want someone to fix it either, so just asking the question, the open question, how is it? What’s it like for you right now? And just leaving the pause, the space for them to fill, that’s enough. 

MF – Yes. You know I think one of the biggest challenges that we have as humanity is our false God complex of thinking that whatever it is that shows up or somebody tells me about, I need to be able to fix. That’s not always what it’s about. Fix the things I can fix. But listening and asking questions, the kind of questions that we’re talking about, isn’t about fixing and I think that that’s a really interesting thing for all of us. And if there’s anything that I want to challenge anyone with today as you listen is really, the next person that you show up in front, whatever the topic is ask them what it’s like to experience this? Ask how it’s going. For so many of us it’s the opening question but it’s not always so and when it’s somebody that I have difficulty with, it’s more difficult for me to ask that question because that person is the one I want to tell how to do it. 

KC – Yeah. I think what’s beautiful about this work is time and time again, when I use it with clients or recently I did a version of a gratitude appreciation circle with a group of friends outside of the coaching world and we just went round once so we didn’t overwhelm everyone with gratitude, it was just like whoever you were next too, and they all found themselves in tears and I think it’s because we all have that. We’re not needing to prepare this big speech, we all have this we just quite often don’t get the opportunity to say it, and so then giving someone that question, that space, that’s very liberating and freeing and it really sort of connects us to our humanity. 

MF – I think that’s the other piece that you’re talking about, the outcome is there’s a deeper connection. In the moment I can feel a deeper connection with somebody on my team. All of us become differently affected. You know that I’m a gamer and I often bring game examples but I had a very moving example again today. I think one of the reasons why people who teach play games is because the game is the game but just about every sophisticated game allows people to go into social media chats like Discord and things like that, and that’s where the bonding happens. But there was just something today, there was one of my alliance friends that, and when I say friends it’s somebody that I know in the game, I don’t know who he really is, I know his avatar and I know his avatar name but that’s it. But I know that there was a very serious cancer threat for his wife about three years ago and, you know, I helped process when this was happening and that’s one of the things that happens a lot, when somebody is in crisis behind the scenes somebody will reach. So there’s a social construct and I think that’s part of what feeds the game. And then today, again, his wife had another bad diagnosis and I said to him one of the things that you need to know is that I will always be here for us to talk and process, whether we proceed to play or quit the game. He wrote back and said do you know one of the reasons why I haven’t quit the game yet, he was afraid that I would lose this one connection with somebody that had, that I could be totally honest with, I don’t know where you are, I don’t know who and what you are but I trust the connection. Just because there was somebody who… and he’s got a very strong friendship base in his… so I think that, there’s something there, relationship really is the currency of human wellbeing in the midst of all the worst situations. 

KC – That’s an amazing example of connection, wow. 

MF – It had me in tears actually, when I read that I burst into tears. Then I went to a friend and said I need to read you this, just listen to this. And so I think those are the places. Sandra Cane and I were in an interesting competition as well the other day, it’s interesting when you look at crises that are, like a pandemic or a fire or a NATO or an earthquake, those kinds of crises that we perceive as hitting us from nature. It’s not from a group of human beings. In those kind of crises people come together and it’s a very different seeing, sensing and feeling one another. It’s when we go into crises that are human created – political situations, racism, any one of these things – that we begin to see that humanity turns against one another, that’s a place where we as coaches and leaders have impact. That’s the growth place for us as humanity. How can I hear, feel and sense the person that I vehemently disagree with in a political stance or about climate crisis. But until I can feel, hear and sense that, that person will continue to ramp up and hear less. 

KC – I think what you’re talking too has made me realize as well that we’re never fully aware of our impact in terms of the wider system. You’re example of that connection online made me think of Sean Stevenson who sadly passed last year. He was known as the four foot giant and he was an inspirational speaker, and when he was very young he saw, it was on the way back from an airport and he was on one of those shuttle buses, and he saw that the driver was pretty sad and so he just stood at the front of the bus and started talking to the driver and then afterwards at the hotel, the overnight stay at the airport, the driver came up to his family and said I just want to thank your son because I was going to take my own life this evening and his conversation made me change my mind. And that’s a young boy having a conversation, not really thinking about that bigger ripple, but we’re never fully aware of what’s possible. 

MF – With kindness so much more than with violence. With violence and with aggression the impact may seem faster but it continues to destroy, kindness is what’s building. Until I can hear, feel and sense it’s very difficult to have access to kindness. 

KC – Mmm, and it’s in terms of those people that we don’t know, those strangers on the street that we see who are sad, just a smile even might just be enough to lean into their system and offer them a moment’s hope. 

MF – It reminds me, when you say that, it reminds me of a podcast that you did a while back that was about I think it was about, I think it was you, it was about what is the single biggest factor that creates longevity of human life and over decades they tracked generations of people in different parts of the world, it was known as the blue zone where the oldest people are. So the factors that they tracked were things like diet and exercise, flu shots, you know, all the things that we know about. And it’s interesting, the diet and exercise actually rates lower than flu shots so that was interesting. But it’s this looking at the second most important one of the longevity factors is having a significant other person in your life, whether that’s a friend, whether that’s a person you can call at night when we’re in trouble or a spouse, that significant other, the one important or two important people. The single most important factor in longevity is being surrounded in the strong, what they call social contract. That’s exactly what you described. To walk down the street and wave at somebody, to see the checker in the grocery store and have a conversation, to sit down next to somebody at the airport, it’s those things that creates longevity. That’s the human relationship connection that is the biggest tether to longevity and health. 

KC – It’s very easy to overlook isn’t it, when we focus on feeling, seeing and sensing our systems, our families, our teams. Because we’re busy and there’s a lot going on so that one feels like it might get pushed on the back burner, but I’ve noticed being here and with my British accent in North Carolina, people always stop to talk to me. So I was in the mountains over the weekend and this young girl was fascinated by me and I realize that has created more of what you’re talking about than I’ve ever had in my life, and it does bring me joy. 

MF – It does, it does. Because part of what they’re talking about, is that when they’re talking about your good friends, those are the ones that become frenemies. It’s these contacts that are passing that gives us that adrenaline, that serotonin piece of feeling good. But you can see how at the, just before we started the podcast we were saying where do we go, because what you’ve just said is we pay attention to what is close to us or what is in our view of importance or emergency but everything that we see, hear close up relates to our bigger system outside. And we often forget that everything that happens here has a ripple effect into a larger whole and how am I responsible or can be conscious and intentional to creating a ripple effect to way beyond me? 

KC – Yeah, and it’s kind of beautiful to think that it not only impacts us positively but it impacts the world and that wider system. 

MF – Yes. Yes. So, hearing, feeling, sensing, leadership, coaching – I have a high dream that in, I don’t know, there’s so much breaking down at the moment that’s also a good thing so I don’t know how long it’s going to take, probably not in my lifetime, but I have a best hope that coaching and the concepts that we bring to that and the ways of being, systems inspired leadership, conscious leadership, all the leadership models that are around there that are similar in holding relationship focus, hoping that there comes a time that that is the talk on the street. It’s not a specialty training but that humanity can evolve to a place like that. And until we can hold conscious awareness not only of what’s happening close to me in the office or in my house, but also a little bit further out and then look at the bigger picture, take time, what really is happening around climate change if I don’t just read social media and political conversation. What really is happening politically? Every now and again just go beyond my own little world of interest and begin to look at research and things that are out there, see some of that. Hear some of that./ Sense what that does to you and then begin to act differently here in this locus of control now. Lots of complexity when we begin to think and play like that. 

KC – And I’m wondering Marita, what do you think is possible from there, if we’re all to hear, feel, see, sense the system more, the wider system? 

MF – I hope that we can be creative, collaborative and closer to this thing that we call co-opatition. And that we can bring consciousness to, the word kindness keeps coming up for me because with kindness comes strong actions as well. But that we can be consciously working towards the healthy interdependence between us and those who are different from us. Humanity in nature, humanity in the animal kingdom, humanity in business – there’s something there that there is a collective awareness of interdependence and how to keep that healthy. That does not mean there’s not conflict. That means we see conflict as a signal for something that’s trying to change. Be in the question of that rather than who did what to whom and who’s right and who’s wrong. It’s those kinds of ways that is testing us at the moment, every single one of us. 

KC – Sounds like a much more holistic way of living and I hope that that is the future for humanity. 

MF – I hope so. And I’m also aware that if we don’t we’re going to keep on being slapped up the side of the head by nature and by pandemics and all sorts of things that evolves us, brings us different information. If we just look at the change that happened when we had to listen, had to hear, feel and sense what’s happening with the pandemic. The global changed that occurred. Some good, some bad, but life changing in the good direction in many ways. 

KC – So would you say if we don’t listen then we’re going to be forced too anyway at some point. 

MF – I think from that principal of our aside, it’s just a sign of constant sign of emergence, it has to emerge and things that don’t work has to fall down. Things that need to happen, sometimes, the things that doesn’t work has to break down before the things that can work can be getting up. So I think it’s inevitable, it really is what evolution is about. The moment we stop evolving in systems it dies so I do think if change needs to happen it will keep on trying to happen. 

KC – This was such a powerful conversation Marita, it’s given me a lot to think about and it’s made me think that we’re so much more integrated, actually, then we let ourselves believe. And if only we could lean into that and see the beauty of that. 

MF – Well, what I’m aware of is that after a conversation like this with you, there’s a part of me that’s going to really struggle to get back to the easy details of what I was supposed to do after this call because my mind and focus is something very much bigger and grander than the next set of email or the whatever, so that’s the beauty and irritation of this. 

KC – Well my apologies to your agenda for the rest of the day, I’m sorry we’re at the level of the solar system right now. 

MF – No, absolutely, it’s really, really good. It reminds me of the, I may not get the accent right correctly, but it reminds me of the Japanese afternoon/evening greeting when everybody leaves work ‘otsukaresama desu’, it literally, everybody who passes everybody as they go home bow with ‘otsukaresama desu’ which simply means you’ve worked so hard, you must be tired, thank you. So I want to say to us in this call we’ve worked so hard, we must be tired, thank you. That’s a good fatigue to have. 

KC – I like that, I’m going to give you a bow and probably not try and pronounce that myself. Appreciate it Martia, take care.

[Music outro begins 25:51] 

MF – Great conversation Katie, thank you. 

KC – Thanks to Marita for that thought provoking conversation. My key takeaways are as follows. We are always at choice whether we really listen, see and feel what’s happening around us. How can we chose to really see as opposed to turning a blind eye to our actions? When we become aware of where our intention is going we can start to be more conscious and how and where we direct it. Every one of us is the leader of our own lives. What is your primary channel for noticing and sensing what is happening around you? Is it seeing, hearing or feeling? As leaders it can be hard to ask what’s it like during challenging times because of the belief that the answer might lead to something that they have to fix. Instead we can ask the question not in anticipation of fixing anything but as an offering of space. When we look at a crisis like a pandemic or a wildfire which we typically perceive as hitting us from nature, quite often people come together. There’s  a different sense of hearing, seeing and feeling one another. When we go to crises that a human created like political situations, racism, war etc. we begin to see humanity turn against one another. That’s the place that we as coaches and leaders have impact. That’s the growth place for us as humanity. How can I hear, see and feel somebody that I vehemently disagree with? With kindness, so much more is possible than violence. When we start to fully see, hear and see the systems around us, we start to access kindness from which we build. The single most factor in longevity is being surrounded by a strong social contract. Examples of this include waving at a stranger in the street or having a conversation with the check-out worker. These kinds of interactions are very easy to overlook and yet they are essential to our wellbeing. To find out more about Marita’s work do check out CRRGlobal.com. For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole.

[Outro 28:41- end]