Ep.2 The systems that inspired me with Marita Fridjhon

In this episode, Katie Churchman is in conversation with Marita Fridjhon, co-owner and CEO of CRR Global, about some of the systems that have inspired the work that she does, with CRR Global and beyond. The conversation covers:

• Growing up in South Africa during the Apartheid era
• Working as a clinical social worker at the University of Cape Town
• Her time in the Amazon during a cross-cultural research project investigating the impact of death and dying in families and communities
• Discovering coaching and the work of Arnie and Amy Mindell
• The power of looking back in order to step forward into Right Relationship with the many systems within which we all exist.

Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.


For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman 

MF – Marita Fridjhon

[Intro 00:00 – 00:07] 

KC – Hello and a big welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and today I’m talking with Marita Fridjhon, co-owner and CEO of CRR Global, about some of the systems that have inspired her. Marita Fridjhon is a mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in clinical social work, community development, process work, family systems therapy, business consulting and alternative dispute resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy and conflict management and the development of learning organizations. In this episode Marita and I talk about some of the systems that inspire her to do the work that she does with CRR Global and beyond. This conversation covers growing up in South Africa during the apartheid era, working as a clinical social worker at the University of Cape Town, her time in the Amazon during a cross-cultural research project, investigating the impact of death and dying in families and communities, discovering coaching and the work of Arnie and Amy Mindell and the power of looking back in order to step forward into right relationship with the many systems within which we all exist. This was a glorious conversation that gives a sense of the rich, diverse and powerful experiences that have helped to shape Marita’s deep interest in systemic evolution. So without further ado I bring you Marita Fridjhon. 

KC – Marita, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. I’m always so happy to have you on the show. 

MF – Thank you Katie, always, always a delight to sit with you and noodle together with things. I know how often we plan a particular way or a particular topic and then by the time that we’re done it’s gone so many different places that we never anticipated it will go. 

KC – Yeah, this is definitely going to be one of those today. So, I have a title of the systems that inspired me, I’m curious to have a conversation with you, Marita, about some of the systems that inspired the work that you do and I was wondering if you could start by sharing a bit about growing up in South Africa. 

MF – Yeah. Thank you Katie, I think that’s an amazing topic and I hope that everybody that listens also will, as we navigate this and talk with this also begin to walk about what are the systems that influence and impacted every single one of us to be on the path that we are, because I think that that, all of it, is a systemic event. So, for me, growing up in South Africa I think is probably the biggest influencer for who I became and what I still am passionate about. Because I grew up during the apartheid era and I grew up on a farm in the semi-dessert. Looking back now I can see and feel how my family, particularly my father, who is of Dutch heritage, had a very different approach to apartheid than most of the people around us. Didn’t realize it at the time. So how we were with our farm laborers then turned out to be very different from how other people were. Now, they still separate, they were our laborers, but there were ways in which at night we would sit around, grew up Christian, we would sit around and whatever bible reading or prayer that we did as a family, our laborers with their families were altogether with us in the same space. The food that we ate, that they helped prepare, was also shared with them. So it’s a very different piece from the segregation that I then got introduced to by the time I went to school. So for me when I first arrived at school and there were no people of color around, I couldn’t understand, I didn’t get it. I think that was the first big wake up call. And then with conversations with my father, other things that, my mom as well, other things that became apparent and started happening, I really got, and today I look back, the pain and the privilege I experienced being able to grow up white in South Africa but with the different awareness, different understanding, of what is difficult about apartheid. So I think that was one of the biggest influences for me, and then being involved and on faculty at the University of Cape Town where we were the only one of two universities in the country that allowed all races to come in, and studying as a social worker there, that whole piece again where there was an integration the likes of which I wanted to be part of and kind of grew up with as well. So I think that piece then created a deeper understanding as well. But it was just, if I go through the sequences of my own evolution through the systems that I was part of, that hugely impacted who I became and what I am doing, and still do and still aware of the systemic oppression that, even when I’m standing, was standing with my colored and Black colleagues in front of tear gas, I was still white. And that’s still must have, and was, a privilege. So it’s a humbling road on one hand, but I’m grateful that I was on that side of the evolution and made a huge difference. 

KC – I’m curious, if that upbringing sort of brought you to an interest in systemic evolution, as opposed to individual systems, you always focus on ever-wider systems and I’m wondering if that sort of brought that to your attention. 

MF – Part of what, and again, because at that point I was in an academic institute, at the university where I was in the school of social work, so there’s a study sociologically about evolution and what happened and why are things happening the way it does so I think that too. And I think that choice was also motivated by some of my childhood experiences of losing my parents very early and my own trauma around that, so the whole moving into the field of social work and then psychiatric social work was to do with my own losses at a young age as well as the chaos around us during that time. And what was significant for me was to see that it was the systemic movement and small bits and pieces making a change but also helping. So when we were jailed for being in the streets and I was in jail together with, and there were other white colleagues as well but in South Africa there are different races so not everybody is Black but there are Indian, there is color, there is the tribal ones. But it was clear that one person standing up against this was not gonna make a difference. It was the protest, it was the movement, that combined and brought together all races to stand up against this, that got the attention. So that to me was a systemic event. When then also was interested was I couldn’t understand, we couldn’t understand why it still couldn’t make a difference. Retrospectively when I’m thinking back on it now, the change in South Africa came about when globally different countries brought sanctions against South Africa and impacted the economy. Again, it’s systemic movement not that different from what we’re seeing at the moment in the war in Ukraine, where there’s a systemic uprising against what is happening. The uprising that we see may not be the one that actually is changing it, but it is that systemic movement of demanding change that begin to create something, and it does it in both directions. Bad things that we see also is a systemic thing, when you’re looking at, whether it is abortion, whether it is racial, whether it is gender, the pros and cons, the fors and against, is all systemic, it’s not individual. Traction happens when the individual comes together in larger movements, so it really is, that’s one of the reasons why I really am beginning to look at what is systems inspired coaching because the things, the movements that we see are all the systems inspired, the good, bad and ugly, and that’s a whole different conversation. But I think it was when that dawned on me it really is the requirement of a systemic intervention of a larger magnitude that brings about the change. And that’s part of I think what we see everywhere, and again, from a system’s perspective, evolution happens and sometimes it’s the good, what we see as good, that ends up creating the change. And sometimes it’s what we think of as the bad that creates the change, but it’s on the quantum, on the larger scale it’s all systemic. It’s not, and individuals, when we think about whichever leaders we want to think about globally, individuals actually are a voice of the system. So the individual political speech is a systemic event. There is nothing that happens in isolation. 

KC – Wow. That must have been quite the powerful paradigm shift then, from powerless individual to how can I harness this collective wisdom here? 

MF – Yeah so I think that’s some of, and we can easily go off in a different direction because there’s systemic influences in my life, but I think when we look at the systemic event, there’s research that came out in 2021, I believe, was the research that came out that said that the biggest challenge for organizations and corporations was how to create a sense of belonging. Because now not everybody works in the same building anymore and can have coffee together, they spread out. So systemic expression creates also a sense of belonging, whether it’s belonging to a rebel group in which it’s a systemic event, and that’s what nature does. Just think about nature as well, nothing in nature exists in isolation, it’s all systemic interdependence. 

KC – There’s some amazing David Attenborough documentaries that show that interdependency of nature and yet we still think we’re so separate and I think kind of the cultural narrative, at least in the west, it feels like we’re meant to see ourselves as an island, which I’m saying is just not the case. 

MF – No, and again, that’s where I’m so interested and fascinated by cross cultural intelligence because it is when you look at cross cultural intelligence, the differences between I cultures and we cultures, how that plays out, so that even in some of the countries that would be described as autocratic, some countries, the we centered culturally intelligent country, is in service of the larger whole. 

KC – I was wondering, you’ve mentioned before about your time you spent in the Amazon on a research project studying the impact of death and dying on families and communities. And I wonder if you could say a bit more about that because I’m sure there was so much you were learning in that environment. 

MF – Yeah, again, you know, just watching the collaboration in interdependence is such a big part of systemic influence, so in the research that we had planned to look at different tribes and how death is treated in different environments. By the time we had arrived at the Amazon in our 60ft yacht… 

KC – No way, wow! 

MF – From South Africa where we left the country with whatever we could put in a 60ft sailing boat-

KC – Oh my god, that must have been an adventure in itself! 

MF – it really was. And so one of the first things that we needed to do was bring somebody on board that could speak Brazilian and also could speak some of the tribal languages. So we had a young, in his teens, Brazilian boy coming with us who was then our interpreter and was on the boat with us the entire time. But just before we arrived there was another incident where, one of the things that happens in the Amazon and hadn’t happened for decades is how, whether it’s missionaries or other Western groups on the Amazon for different reasons, whether it is gold or religion or whatever it is, that there has been a tendency for, the Amazonians are tribal and the men go out hunting, the women stay at home to work with the village and the kids. And in so many cases there’s been situations where missionaries and other white people would come in and rape the women. 

KC – Oh gosh.

MF – So, an incident like that happened again and because of that we couldn’t have access to any of the tribes that we had planned to work with. Somebody introduced us, the Brazilian navy actually is doing work on the Amazon and they, because they patrolled the Amazon, and really there isn’t much to patrol so part of what they do is they do human servicing, so they will stop at different places on the Amazon where there are Amazonian tribes and they would provide them with medical care and food and different things. So we ended up in agreement and got on board of one of those Brazilian navy ships where we travelled with them and that is part of how we then got access to some tribes because we were safe for the tribes as we were with the Brazilian navy. And again, you could see that systemic event where the interdependence of the tribe with people who travel on the river, the Brazilian navy took it on themselves to be part of rescue and protection of people of and on the river. So again there was that whole piece there in terms of how can systems intervene for the sake of and in service of another system. So there was a huge piece on that again and watching the interdependence and how the work that was done between the navy and the local tribes and the medical team on the ship and how they worked with free services to tribes when there were medical emergencies and things that they had no resource for. So that too thus became a whole systemic event that was just amazing to watch, humanity in service of and not against, but was created because there was a negative piece that had happened with the raping that then also called the system of humanity to step in and step up. So just about everything that we look at has its origins in a movement that actually became a systemic expression. 

KC – Amazing to hear about because I’m guessing back then you didn’t have email in quite the same way, so you weren’t emailing the embassy from your smartphone trying to work out what to do with your research mission, so-

MF – Nothing like that. It was a time where we had a video camera and we could record and we could write, so that’s parts of what we did. But again it was that for us as the system that was trying to do research without the help of another system that were the families that we met in where we first started the river that then said here, my tribe can go with you to have this experience, you can see how it’s a cross cultural systemic event. I think one of the things that I’m thinking of when we have this conversation is what we are talking about in ORSC training as well, that talks about the Jung-ian concept of enantiodromia, and enantiodromia is that piece where something has to go as deep as it possibly can or need to in order to become its opposite, so that is part of what gives me hope for what we see at the moment because that’s part of, we just take that segment that I’ve just spoken to, when there was rape and terrible white behavior to Amazonian women, that became, enantiodromia, that became the lowest point and then it’s cycling back up to humanity stepping in to help. So that too, from a systemic perspective, we are always in that figure eight infinity symbol, that sometimes things have to go to it’s very worst before it can begin to turn to become something different. 

KC – What I notice with you Marita, even as we’re having this conversation, you hold it systemically. You hold it as like how that has impacted or is continuing to impact me now and it’s sort of fascinating to see you dance like that with that and this. 

MF – Thank you for that observation, that’s the piece that I want to just also point listeners to, is that it is only in a retrospective that we can begin to make those links. It’s only when we sit in the deep question of what happened, why did it happen, how did it happen, what might be possible given that it happened, it’s only when we sit in those kinds of reflections that we can begin to make sense, and that kind of sense making then is part of what helps us prepare for what is next in terms of what is ours to do or to be grateful for, oh it’s because I got that that I could stumble to this little thing that I’m doing here now that actually is good for the humanity. We always think that, we can’t think, that all of these things have been done and thought through and figured out by us, it really is the system helping us, the system flowing through us, dreaming us, shaping what is happening. That’s the systems inspired action that I’m thinking of. 

KC – And I’m so curious about the research project, then. So when you finally got talking to some of these tribes tell me more about what you learnt around death and dying and how maybe their approaches were different from what you knew. 

MF – Well what I have learnt in that little piece, over the two years, is something again about in the west, and I’m talking from the religious perspective, not necessarily Buddhist, but there was something about dying and going to heaven. And there may be something about reincarnation and there may be, but in the tribes there was something different, there was something about… and I think it’s another systemic influence for me, there was something about, the one tribe I remember where when somebody was dying, and I might have talked to you about this before, when somebody was dying there was the sacred hut that was, think of it as the death hut, that’s where the person is going to die, because they didn’t have the medicine. But there was a belief that when somebody in the tribe dies they emerge as a perfect, wonderful, huge bird that then is free. So part of what happens is every tribe member, kids, families, the entire tribe, goes out and collects feathers. And then they bring the feathers back and put it on the body of the dying person, so by the time that the person passes, literally you can barely recognize that there’s a human body underneath and then that body gets taken into the forest where it will emerge as this magical, brilliant bird that is free to fly. So it’s, just the actions around death is intimidate and it is rather than, so is there a loss? Yes. But it is this, surrounded by a loving tribe that is helping you to emerge as this bird that can fly free forever. 

KC – That’s beautiful. 

MF – So it’s a different version of maybe saying that you’re going to heaven or that you will be reincarnated as a bird, but there was a difference, it was a different systemic event, again, from what we are used to when we in the west think of death. 

KC – So beautiful.

MF – A lot of that for us, systemically also has changed I think with Covid, where there’s more of a, we have to dialogue about it more and meet it differently from so much in the past. So, but I think that yes, the pieces that we talked about in South Africa and the Amazon, being in London and studying with Kubler Ross, again that was to death and dying that really had me, because she was also very systemic in her thinking… 

KC – Tell our listeners, for those who might not be familiar with Kubler Ross’s work? 

MF - Kubler Ross is, she’s from the social work industry as well and she’s somebody that wrote books and articles and teaching around death and dying, and she described the five stages of grief and loss. So that’s her work and my single biggest memory of her was when one of our colleagues came in and talked about how the patient’s family, when the patient is dying, is so angry with God and is yelling at God and that’s just not right, and Kubler Ross looked at the person and said let them yell, God can take it, it’s us who can’t. So again, that systemic piece, allow it to happen and let go of the rest, again, merged just everything became, nothing happens in isolation. So, you know, if I just scoot forward just a little bit to where I am now and you and I have talked about it before, that so much of systemic events in my life lead to all the different trainings and professions that I took on, looking for what is the best systemic answer. And by the time that my late Irish husband and myself that was on the river with me, by the time that we got to the US from Puerto Rico, I was a burnt out therapist, I was like I’m done. Not doing this anymore. But did more therapy for a couple of years and then was like no, not. So one of the biggest turning points in my life that happened in the US was when I went to do my first coaching course with CTI, and in that one it was so clear that everything I’ve done up till now, from organizational change to medical social work to psychiatric social work to mediation to all of that, the puzzle pieces came together that coaching is where all of that comes together. Because that’s part of where we can talk about evolution. Where we can build on what the experience is here. We don’t necessarily have to do the looking back that we so often do in the rear view mirror of what we do in therapy. So it’s just the whole piece that came together. And then you know, the journey with CTI was transformational and out of that the ORSC material was born, and I think the other biggest influencer in my life is Arnie Mendell with his process work that then also is also that systemic unfolding of what is happening in the process of the body, and from there tis he process of my body, all of me, and then it’s me in relationship with the larger system which is this deep democracy work. So you can see how this, in all of us, when we look back on our lives, we can see the theme that linked things together. And brought us to the place that we sit today. 

KC -  I was going to say at one point, aw, the rest is history. And that’s just so not true is it? Because the history is so present now. 

MF – That’s right. So, for me, there’s such a sense of déjà vu sitting in the United States where, with the issues around Black Lives Matter and what happens in the Asian, the whole systemic rank, privilege and abuse that is happening, and will continue to happen. It is a systemic event and we really need to be able to sit with it and navigate these changes one by one. And it’s back to that place from a systemic perspective, me, a system, what it is that I can bring, where is the right place for me to engage with this next systemic, evolutional shift that needs to happen? And sometimes we need to go down before we can get up, that too is a systemic event. 

KC – Endings are, I feel, is a big part of the ORSC curriculum. Understanding and navigating and planning for endings and it just feels like a big clunky piece of life that we don’t tend to plan for and I wonder, you know, the focus on particularly like death and dying, Kubler Ross and in the Amazon, if that impacted also your sense of endings and how important they are? 

MF – I think so. Because it really is important to be more mindful of every ending that we are busy with. Because life is so unpredictable. We can only make sense when we look back at what happened before this happened, and that’s why this now is such an important one because that’s the only thing that we actually have control over. To some extent. Who am I in this now and what it is that I have learnt that can be most useful for this system that I’m sitting with in this now. And what is there this now that may be different from my this now? And what is the curiosity about what is different? Because what is different is probably one of the most challenging systemic events of humanity. How to be with, systemically, what is different. 

KC – Yeah. 

MF – And what is the collaborative piece there? How do I meet that which is different? And own the what is different that I can’t be skillful with. 

KC – I love that. I think this might be a Buddhist practice, one of my really good friends and mentors is a Buddhist and he said to me notice endings. And he meant it in like terms of endings of a thought, ending of a breath, ending of a conversation, and I’d just not thought about it like that but I guess that helps you to meet what is and be with the difference. 

MF – And to appreciate what is in this now. But also, when you talked about your friend, and yeah, talking about this now is so much of Thich Nhat Hanh in his talking, the other Buddhist teacher, and he’s talking about this now. So there is this, there’s just a lot there and it also reminds me of that when they asked this lyricist, and I think I mentioned this to you in a precious podcast as well, somebody who’d write the lyrics for a song and the question was to her how do you find the words for a song? And her answer was you listen for the note and as the note drops it’ll give you the word. It’s the ending of the note that gives you the word. So endings, I think, is really important and I think that the other piece is we can only get to healthy endings when we were careful in our meeting start. Because until I can meet you where you are it’s going to be difficult for me, us, to end together. Sometimes ending together is ok. But can you feel, again, it’s that evolutionary piece that nothing that static. It’s a constant evolution and every evolution in everything is impacting everything else. 

KC – I have this, I’m on an edge, Marita, I don’t want this to end and we’ve just talked about endings, and there are so many other parts of your, the system of you that have informed what you do, I wanted to talk to you about your tennis career and, there’s so many things that probably informed how you show up. 

MF – Well, yeah, and again, Katie, I wish and hope that everybody that listens to this podcast can take a little time and just sift through your history. And what are those moments that were turning points? That you didn’t plan! 

KC – Yes. 

MF – It just happened. You begin to puzzle that together because it gives us a different appreciation for the richness and the complexity of the me, and gives us different curiosity about now I want to know all about the puzzle pieces that put you together, Katie, to be this amazing person that you are today, because none of us are born like that, it’s just puzzle pieces that came together through systemic, influential and confluency events. 

KC – I love how you do that, Marita, you’ve taken it back to the wider system again, our listener and their systems, and it brings me sort of home to that idea that everyone’s so interesting, everyone has so many things going on inside of them and I think we get put into our boxes quite easily but if we can get curious about those systems of me that are walking about- 

MF – Absolutely! 

KC – Yeah! 

MF – Absolutely, and in that, accept also our own diversity. There’s things there and there’s a moment in time where you don’t have access to curiosity. When I have to say to my partner right now I’m not fit for human consumption, I’ll see you later, because that’s not a good meeting place for me. And that will mean that there’s not a good ending place. So there’s that piece that we are, the complexity of who we are, how do we meet that system of me. Takes me back to Cynthia’s book, again, on inside team and to all our work on inner roles and inner things, we too are complex, complex. 

KC – But Cynthia, she will be on the show to talk about inside team and we can dive deeper into that system one. 

MF – Oh perfect, perfect, perfect. 

KC – And Marita, an absolute joy as always to dance with your many selves and to learn a bit more about your rich and diverse and wonderful journey to where you are now and where you’re going, thank you so much. 

MF – Ok, when do we do the podcast when I can interview you? 

KC – I feel like half the time you are taking on that role because you tend to throw questions back! 

MF – Now I want to have your story! 

KC – [Laughs] I don’t know if I’ve quite got the Amazon Rainforest story yet. 

MF – No, you’ve got your own, I bet you have. Every one of us has our own Amazon stories. 

KC – I love that. 

MF – And not the place that sells us books and takeout things. 

KC – Well maybe that’s a question to leave the listener, what’s your version of the Amazon story? 

MF – That’s great. 

[Music outro begins 34:20] 

KC – A huge thanks to Marita Fridjhon for that gorgeous discussion looking back over her life and weaving together some of the puzzle pieces that have inspired and continue to inspire her work around systemic evolution. After listening to this podcast our request is that you look back over your history and think about some of the systems that have impacted you, that perhaps inspired you to where you are today and maybe to listening to this very podcast. Think back to some of the turning points in your life that maybe you didn’t plan and then begin to puzzle that together. In looking back it gives us a different appreciation for the richness and the complexity, and also offers us a different curiosity for all of the other puzzle pieces that make up every one else out in the world. No single person is an island, we’ve all been shaped and continue to be shaped by Relationship Systems which are, as we all are, in a constant state of emergence. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole. 

[Music outro 36:23 – end]