In this episode, Katie talks with CEO of CRR Global, Marita Fridjhon, about how to take the ORSC tools and skills outside of coaching sessions and into our everyday interactions. Across the conversation we discuss:
Marita Fridjhon is a co-founder and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
In this episode, Katie talks with CEO of CRR Global, Marita Fridjhon, about how to take the ORSC tools and skills outside of coaching sessions and into our everyday interactions. Across the conversation we discuss:
Marita Fridjhon is a co-founder and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
MF - Marita Fridjhon
[Intro 00:00 – 00:09]
KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode I’m talking with CEO of CRR Global, Marita Fridjhon, about how to take the ORSC tools and skills out of coaching sessions and into our everyday interactions. Across the conversation we discuss: how to make a difference in the places where we don’t coach yet; bringing a different form of collective change through these small yet significant interactions; small acts of kindness; the power of positivity and bringing a coaching mindset to our wider community systems. As well as being co-owner and CEO of CRR Global, Marita Fridjhon is a mentor to an ever-growing community of practitionersin the field of Relationship Systems work. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of learning organizations. So without further ado I bring you, Marita Fridjhon.
KC – Marita, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast.
MF – Hey Katie, always good to sit with you.
KC – You were reflecting on the very title of this show, Relationship Matters, and that brought you to our theme of today, so tell me about what are you pondering on?
MF – Yeah, just the theme that we have, that relationship matters, now often we have the slogan that pulls in all sorts of things that is it matters from the living room, to the board room, to the zoom room to whatever. And what I’m just so aware of on these podcasts is how we are doing it from, mostly from the role, as a professional coach. Or as a CEO of a professional coaching organization. And people are listening to it from similar places but it’s always with our coaching head on in a more functional, professional role. And I would love to invite us today to be more in the conversation about how do we leverage and use our skills and tools with which we work, and stand in the fact that relationship matters? How do we use it on the street, how do we use it in the store? How do we use it when somebody delivers a package? How do we use it there? We are the privilege and we are talking to the privileged. There are people on the street and in everyday life that occupies the same space that we do, go through the same actions with much less privileged, and in situations where their functional role is often what gets hammered.
KC – I love this topic and I think it’s so relevant to probably everyone listening to this. We’ve all been in that place where we’ve been in coach role and we’ve done some fine coaching all day, and then we’ve gone to the store and we’ve been rude, or we’ve just disregarded the people around us.
MF – Or we align with the people that are rude to the checkout counter, or the person behind the checkout counter, or with the cashier that does the checking. And it’s like so there’s a place where inside or actively we may take sides, and what I would love to do today is to sit in a place where if we don’t take sides, if we look at what it is that we can bring, that shifts a little bit in the direction of positivity. That is a little bit of a helping hand reach for somebody that’s in trouble. How do we do that from that place of the skills and tools that we have, but we will never probably coach these people. Although sometimes we end up doing that.
KC – So bringing a coach approach and the tools and skills to our day-to-day lives. And where are the missed opportunities you see this the most Marita?
MF – I think there’s a confluence of two things that drive me to this conversation with you. One is that a couple months ago Faith and I got contacted by somebody that has been doing odd jobs for us around the house, handyman kind of things. And for a couple times I’ve tried to call him and just couldn’t get a response, and at the moment you know, things happen in this industry where people disappear or they move… whatever. So, at some stage, ok, time to find a different handyman and then there was a call from him and he said, he apologized and said ‘I’m sorry that I didn’t call back, but I’m in trouble because my wife and I are in trouble and if we don’t get help we’ll probably have to divorce and we have a baby and we can’t find anybody to coach or to help us that we can afford, and in conversations with you and Faith I somehow heard that you are coaches or you work with this kind of stuff, I’m calling for help.’ So there was need for action, allowed this person in a moment where they didn’t know what to do, to reach for us as coaches. But that came out of a… and we ended up pro bono coaching them for a number of sessions and, for now, as far as we know, helped save the marriage. But that’s one example, but that ability to reach came from a need to action with us as homeowners, with somebody that did odd jobs for us. So again, it’s that what is that happened there, not as a role as a coach but as a human being, then allowed somebody to reach in the way they did. So I think that’s one situation where, or one example, where I felt like hmm, I wonder what we did. And I think it’s that way of being, even when we’re not in the professional role of coach, that I’m inviting everybody to just begin to think about. How do we interact with people that are part of our support system, but is on a very different level from us? So that’s one example. A place where I want to hang out more with you about is some of the stuff that happens in the grocery store. A couple weeks ago I ended up in a grocery store and I’m hoping to share more of the fun stories, but the gentleman that came in behind the counter recognized me, he was fascinated by the name on my card, he was asking something about and he said ‘Mrs Fridjhon, I’m so glad that you’re the person that is my first client on my shift here.’ What is it that had him greet me like that? So, previous interactions clearly created this field. So I was checking out, loading my bag, different things, and as we were doing that there was this sudden slamming sound on the counter to the right of me and I looked and there was a woman standing there and she banged a gallon of milk on the counter and said ‘thank you for forgetting my milk’ and turned around and walked out. And I looked at him and said what just happened? And he said, and I could see that he was upset and triggered, he said ‘I don’t know, I’ve never, I don’t know who that is, I just came on, I don’t know what happened’, and he was clearly really upset. And just so you know, when I talked to managers of this chain grocery stores, stuff that happen to their cashiers are often really, really disturbing. So I could see that this was like on his first client was standing there and already there was something like that happening. There was a part of me that was also a little bit triggered, it was like, I just stopped. And I turned to him and said ‘you know, I really am sorry that happened and I’m wondering what happened to her before she came here. What happened in her life? Because sometimes, the things that come our way really hasn’t anything to do with us, it has to do with other things in their life.’ And he looked down and stood there for a while and the person behind me in the line also said ‘you know, that’s so true.’ And then he said ‘thank you, I’ve never thought of it like that’. Is this somebody I will ever coach? Probably not. But could I from the privileged position that it wasn’t me that was standing in that line behind the cash register, it was him. He was in the functional role. I could do something with the skills and tools and insights that I have. How can we use that more when we see these things happening around us? That’s the question that I’m sitting in. When we as coaches say relationship matters, who of us really, really look at the places that we may or may not be walking the talk of that?
KC – I love that example, I think it speaks to how easily we get trapped in seeing people for their functions. Almost as if we’re human doings and the people around us in our world are there to offer us some kind of functional service. And sometimes it can feel like that as a coach, your there as a function for this other person on the other side of the screen, but when we get trapped in that functional space it just becomes, well it becomes lost and without relationship. And as we know, relationship really does matter and when we lean in in the little and the big ways, and I think, I’m definitely guilty of this, that it’s easier to lean in when I’ve got my coach role on because that’s my job, than it is when I’m really tired and I’ve done a lot of work in the supermarket. And yet when I do, my gosh, it’s so rewarding. For me and for the other person.
MF – I think what you’re talking about is really so important, Katie, because it is in my functional role as coach or CEO, there often is fatigue because we need to help hold it, from a systems inspired coaching perspective it is the client’s agenda that we navigate that will help solve it. But we are holding it and sometimes it can be fatiguing. If I can just think about the gentlemen that was behind the cash register, was in his functional role and the attack came at him even though he wasn’t even there. In that moment I don’t have to be a coach, I can simply step into my human role and use and leverage the privilege that I have in that moment to bring positivity and understanding. That is what I would love to see more of us as coaching doing on the street, and in different interactions like this.
KC – Yeah, and I notice when we get busy that gets lost. So when I first moved to Charlotte, North Carolina, where I was living as you know for three years, initially I had quite a bit of time early on whilst we were settling and setting ourselves up, so I’d go round the grocery store as it’s called there, or the supermarket over here, and I remember one time my husband Dan coming with me and he was like you literally know everyone. So I’d go around and I’d meet everyone on my journey around the supermarket. I recently was reminded of that and I was rushing around London, I think London is a busy city so it kind of brings that out in people, and I realized I just hadn’t looked up. I hadn’t looked up at the people.
MF – That’s it. What you just said. It really is that, even psychologists that came up with a statement a year back and I may not get it right, but she said if we can simply look at each other as human beings and in our look convey, even if we don’t say anything, if we can convey I see you, I care about you, you’re good enough, how do we occupy that in our own body and being, in a situation like that where that’s not always the case.
KC – No, and it can be thankless work, stacking shelves. Not so obvious, like coaching, sometimes we get a lot of love and support from our clients and it can be quite full of gratitude, and so I wonder how far something like I see you goes. I wonder how far that ripples out into the world.
MF – I would love – I think that if there’s, for me personally, a mere mission and vision it is about that. It is yes, all the contribution to be done on a cooperate level, on a coaching industry level, all of that, but from that personal system of self that is me, how much change and kindness and positivity can I help facilitate in a world that is in crisis because there’s not enough of that? And there are places where I won’t be able too. That’s what I would love for everybody that’s listening, to just think about. Where is it that I can bring more of that? Where is it that my skills and privilege can be leveraged, not because there’s payment for it or not because I was the leader of a successful project but because I was a human being for whom relationship mattered on the street. And I think that contributes to what Gottman statistic around the positive to negative ratios are ever changing and it’s like now needs to be at least 5:1, even during conflict. And the statistics for positivity to negativity is increasing. Can we in more places be part of that 18 to 20 positivity reactions to somebody. Just think about the world. We’re nowhere near that, as people. You know, work with one another.
KC – We’re not. And I think this builds off what we were saying in another session about how sometimes as coaches when we’re not doing the work enough ourselves and we forget that actually it starts with system one, system me as coach. And it’s short sighted for us to think I’m doing good in the world, I’m a coach, and then going out into the world and not actually bringing any of that to the rest of the comunities you’re in.
MF – Not walking the talk. Yes. Absolutely. Well and there’s something else that is the secondary piece of this. That also I don’t know, I’m 99.9% sure that that’s not why I’m doing this, that’s not why you’re doing what you just described, but there is something about how it gets back to us. That’s actually part of what we’re describing here at the moment is what they are talking about in the longevity studies as a social construct. Social construct is the most important research finding about what creates and what supports longevity. And social contract is these kinds of interactions with people that we don’t know.
KC – Yeah.
MF – So it plays into some of that as well.
KC – What you’re making me realize as well is it’s curiosity is key. Because I think sometimes we can see people for their roles and not realize that roles belong to the system, and then for some reason, maybe it’s business, maybe it’s short sightedness, whatever, we’re not curious. We feel like there’s nothing to learn there and that we know who that person is, and my mother always used to embarrass me when I was growing up because she’d make friends with everyone at the supermarket, and she’d find out everything about them, and there’s something, it’s a super power, now I see that as.
MF – Yes.
KC – To actually go in and be like who are you, tell me about who you are beyond your job title and all of these boxes we put people in, that is, I mean that’s the coach approach on the street right there.
MF – I think so. I think so. It really is that, there are times where I, when I’ve been in difficult situations and I know that if I stay at home feeling the way I feel at the moment, Faith my partner will become the target because it will become about her but it isn’t. So those are the times that I say to Faith, Faith, I’m not fit for human consumption, I’m taking the dog for a walk. But I also, so the dog gets a walk and I get out, but so often I actually will go either to the post office where I collect mail or send something away or to the grocery store or supermarket, bent on and committed to make contact with human beings in a way that will bring positivity because I know that’s one of the things that shifted for me as well. So I think that there is something, it does go both ways, but the impact, and again, we talk about global impact, we talk about corporate impact when we do coaching, but if we just look at the examples you just used, the impact organizationally within that store, is massive. And that is simply because we were kind human beings for whom relationship matter.
KC – I think this is also… there’s a part of what we do as coaches which is helping people to see different parts of themselves. And I noticed this at a networking drinks I was invited to and there was some young grads there, in finance, and they were quite shy and they were just giving me their job titles. And they happened to mention where they were from and one’s from Japan and one was from Singapore, and I asked this question, I was like so, you know, what parts of your culture from Japan and Singapore do you bring to the UK and what do you do different? And then suddenly there was this group and it was the team and they were staring to have this different kind of conversation with each other, even though they’d been together at that point for 10 months, they didn’t know each other in this way, and I didn’t realize that’s me kind of being a coach but just having a conversation in I guess a different way than people tend to.
MF – Yeah, and I sometimes don’t know, I’d be really curious about this, I sometimes also don’t know how much these interactions that you and I describe and talk about at the moment, impact the company culture of that store. Because it does go back to meetings. There was another story, I could spend a whole podcast just telling stories but I won’t do that, but there’s another event, incident that happened where Faith read me something that she saw on Facebook about an interaction between a shopper and somebody in the store, the cashier, that made me think of something. So the next time I went I was in the line where clearly the cashier were fairly new because she had somebody behind her that she would turn too and ask a question, so she was in training and also it says there ‘cashier in training’. The woman that was packing the grocery bags at that stage also was new, because she at some stage looked at the cashier and said should I use two bags for this? Because I’ve given her a bunch of bags, and the cashier said yes, you’ve got plenty of bags. So clearly both were in training. So when I was done, just before they cashed out, I said wait, stop for a moment. Could you tell me what is your favorite sweet because I need to buy sweets for somebody and I don’t often buy sweets, and she looked at me and said oh, let’s just say Snickers. Said oh Snickers are just the best and I said oh great, and they were there, four for five bucks and so I got four Snickers bars and I put it down there. So she cashed it all out and then when all was done, before they could pack the Snickers bar, I grabbed and said that’s it, I want to give two of the bars to you, thank you for the job that you do as a cashier, and I want to give two to you, thank you for packing my bags, and both of them looked horrified and said no, we can’t take it. I said sure you can! I paid for it. I can do with it what I… sure you can! And they said no, no, no, I don’t know if we can take anything from customers, and she called the manager across and as he came walking, he was sort of smiling and said, but he was serious, and said what’s going on? She said this customer wanted to give us sweets and I don’t know if we can take it and he said did she pay for it? And he was sort of holding that tone and she said yes, and he burst out laughing and said take it, this is the woman that I’ll be talking to about it. So there was something probably of a positive account or recounting, so I think it does make a difference as well, and again, do we do it for that? Partly because it’s a positive experience for us as well. But it makes a difference.
KC – And it’s also such a great training ground, I often hear from new coaches that they want new clients, they want more clients and they can’t practice the work, and yet really we’re surrounded by systems and if you want to practice metaskills there’s no better place than taking in playfulness to a supermarket.
MF – That’s it.
KC – Or curiosity to a work drinks.
MF – That’s it. And then there are the other places, this is probably the last example for this one. There’s another place where our skills and privilege and tools really are needed. I was standing behind a husband and wife checking out, and the things that were on the counter were more festive things. There was flowers, there was birthday cake. But the husband could barely hold himself together, he was in tears, the wife was sort of holding together but you could see that she was also really down. And the cashier who was somebody that I’d had previous interactions with, looked at the wife and said are you ok? And the wife said no, actually I’m not. Our son was shot at a party he went too three weeks ago. And today is his birthday. Now we understood what the flowers was about, and the birthday cake, and you know, I said to her I’m really sorry to hear that and what a great idea to celebrate his birthday, and she was now in tears as well. And I said you know, one of the things that might be useful to remember is that in consensus reality this world that we’re living in at the moment, he is no longer here. But in essence and in dreaming which is where you are doing this, buying the cake, he will never leave you, he’s still here. She looked at me and said I’ve never thought of it like that. And as they were cashing her out the cashier said we buy the cake and the flowers. He didn’t charge her for it. That is the privilege that we have, to be able to, in a situation like that, even though we’re not training them, there would even be an understanding in this place of essence or dreaming, but they got it because there was an emotional something that she got. We have so much that we can offer if we just open our eyes. Look around and do one small act of kindness in service of relationship matters out there, on the street, where people are in need. And we may never see them again. But what’s that one thing that’s ours to give?
KC – And how might that ripple out in some way that we’ll never know but we have to trust it does.
MF – We are back to the law of nonlocality, what happens in one place already makes a difference somewhere else. And one of the, and then there’s always the retrospective, I keep on sitting with this story that I told way in the beginning about the woman that slammed down her milk and what was going on? And what I put together was that probably she loaded her car, went home, unpacked everything and missed the bottle of milk. And she came back and that’s what happened. And I’m sitting in what is it that I could have done differently? It happened so fast, but is there something in a situation like that that I could have done to ease something for her as well? But we can’t touch all the dots and cross all the Ts, but find out which are the ones that we can.
KC – Mmm. This makes me think of, you said last time it’s system’s inspired and fill in the blanks, and I wonder whether this is system’s inspired living and it doesn’t mean that we get it right but we’re inspired by every moment and interaction.
MF – That’s it. I think you’re right. I think this is what I mean when I say that I hope that in two decades, what we hold to be coaching is part of human interaction out there. Not intentionally coaching anybody, but using that which we have that gives us the privilege of being able to sit in these situations without being reactive, and soothe, be kind.
KC – It sounds so simple doesn’t it, but it’s not easy as we know.
MF – No, as long as each one of us today starts doing the pieces that are ours to do.
KC – The pieces that are ours to do. And gosh, there’s so many systems out there.
MF – I know.
KC – And the ripple effect excites me, I think, more around this than I in some of the big corporate work that I do because we don’t know how far this will go, we don’t know how wide this could stretch, and imagine if this was the new paradigm for living, my gosh.
MF – I know! We would all be less lonely and the sense of lonely would drastically decrease. And I think that is what it’s about, because I, there’s a whole other podcast when I think about what is it that creates the violence, the upsetness - some of this is the antidote.
KC – Mmm. We forget that we’re human.
MF – Yeah. Where we can find the access points.
KC – Yeah, this is such a beautiful discussion Marita. It’s left me with a lot to ponder on and I’m gonna do my best to be systems inspired in my living tomorrow. I would say today but it’s pretty late where I am, as you know, and there’s just my husband so I’ll try and be systems inspired when he gets home.
MF – That’s right, that’s right. And thank you, thank you, the conversation really is awakened even me as I go out today, beyond my coaching engagements, to, I love the looking up and seeing that you brought, to look up and see, and validate.
KC – What was that you said? See someone else? See me?
MF – I see, I see you…
KC – I see you.
MF – I value you, you are enough.
KC – Mmm. Gosh, that’s gorgeous, thank you.
MF – I know. How do I bring that to my facial expression, even as a danger type?
KC – How do I bring that to the tube during rush hour? At 7am on a Tuesday morning, I’ll give it a go!
MF – I know, I know, I know! Think of the places that you can do it, I think that’s the other piece. Not every mountain is mine to climb. So pick the places where you can do it, where it’s available.
KC – Thank you Marita, as always it was a delight and take care.
MF – It had me quite emotional, thank you Katie, wonderful as always.
KC – Bye Marita.
MF – Let’s go and change it out there – bye!
[Music outro begins 27:35]
KC – Thanks to Marita for the wonderful stories that beautifully illustrated how we can all bring more of an ORSC approach to our everyday lives. Here are my key takeaways. When we aren’t wearing a coaching hat, how do we leverage our tools and skills on the street or when somebody delivers a package, or at the grocery store? What can we bring that shifts our community systems a little bit in the direction of positivity? We don’t have to necessarily be a coach on the street, but if we can step more into our human role to the competency and skills coaching gives us we can start to see more of the human beings in front of us. How do we share with our whole being that we see someone else? How much change, kindness and positivity can I help to facilitate in a world in crisis, because there isn’t enough of that. Where is it that I can bring more of that? Where is it that my skills and privilege can be leveraged? Not because I was paid for it or because I was the leader of a successful project, but because I am a human being for whom relationship matters when I’m on the street. In my next conversation with Marita we will be building on this conversation with an episode called Family: The Final Exam, so look out for that wherever you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole.
[Music outro 29:55]