Ep8. How not to co-coach

In this episode, Katie talks with co-coaches Kerry Woodcock and Sherry Matheson about their experiences and learnings after over 13 years of co-coaching together. Across the episode we explore: 

• The value of co-coaching, what isn’t co-coaching
• How to shift your attention from yourself as an individual to the power of your relationship
• Finding alignment with a new co-coach
• Developing psychological safety and trust when leading with someone new 
• Learning to trust the third entity so that you can respond to what’s needed in the moment

Kerry Woodcock is a faculty member at CRR Global, principal of CRR Global Canada and alongside being a PCC coach, certified in CTI and ORSC, holds a doctorate in Geography and Environmental Management. Kerry leads change for a world of change — challenging the status quo of those who challenge the status quo! She thrives on working with leaders and organizations that believe that if the world is their work, they had better start at home. They are the innovators, disturbers, challengers, provocateurs, and brink leaders of our world, who believe that it is powerful relationship that creates meaningful change and are willing to do the courageously authentic work it takes to amplify the power of relationship. 

Sherry Matheson is a faculty member at CRR Global and a PCC coach who believes the key is focusing on relationships.  She develops leaders & teams who create organizational cultures that innovate, driving new ideas, new ventures & creative impactful collaborations.  Sherry brings 26 years of experience working in and with executives, directors, managers & teams in various settings – corporate, legal, government, oil & gas, not-for-profit, engineering, health & wellness & collaborative team leadership development to her coaching, facilitating & consulting services.


For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman 

KW - Kerry Woodcock

SM - Sherry Matheson

[Intro 00:00 – 00:09] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode I’m talking with Kerry Woodcock and Sherry Matheson about their experiences and learnings after over 13 years of co-coaching together. Kerry Woodcock is a faculty member at CRR Global, principal of CRR Global Canada and alongside being a PCC coach, certified in CTI and ORSC, holds a doctorate in Geography and Environmental Management. Kerry leads change for a world of change — challenging the status quo of those who challenge the status quo! She thrives on working with leaders and organizations that believe that if the world is their work, they had better start at home. Sherry Matheson is a faculty member at CRR Global and a PCC coach who believes the key is focusing on relationships. Sherry develops leaders and teams who create organizational cultures that innovate, driving new ideas, new ventures and creative impactful collaborations. Sherry brings 26 years of experience working in and with executives, directors, managers and teams in various settings – corporate, legal, government, oil and gas, not-for-profit, engineering, health and wellness and collaborative team leadership development to her coaching, facilitating and consulting services. Across the episode we explore: the value of co-coaching, what isn’t co-coaching; how to shift your attention from yourself as an individual to the power of your relationship; finding alignment with a new co-coach; developing psychological safety and trust when leading with someone new and learning to trust the third entity so that you can respond to what’s needed in the moment. So without further ado I bring you Kerry and Sherry. 

KC – Sherry, Kerry, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast! I’m so happy to have you both on the show. 

KW – Woohoo, it’s great to be here, isn’t it Sherry? 

SM – It is, thank you for having us! 

KC – So today we’re talking about co-coaching, and I’m wondering if you can start by telling me a bit about your experience co-coaching together? 

SM – I don’t even know where to start, there’s so many experiences. 

KW – Yeah. I’m going to put the old bit in just to start, but you know where we met? We only just remembered this, yeah, we met in a CTR course, first, and then we took ORSC together but we were buddies in intelligence in the second ORSC course, so we were buddies together. So there’s something there in our essence, right from the get go, do you remember? 

SM – Yes. I’m trying to remember the exercises that we were doing, and I think it was like who’s walking and who’s not? 

KW – And we ended up skipping around the room, I think we were young girls… 

SM – That’s right, we were skipping! 

KW – So, there’s something in that, like that wasn’t co-coaching yet but that was the start of us and some of our bubbly energy as co-coaches, and from there we took off. 

SM – That was the spark. And I remember, like I even think of like our first co-coaching experience and like I have to say I don’t know if I knew what I was doing in that moment but I just knew that I’d got my co-coach with me, Kerry, and she’s got my back no matter what happens here, like we’ve got each other’s backs and it really is like we just brought out best self to whatever this situation was. Like one of us had naming the emotional field, or checking in, or holding the space, and it’s like just bringing our strengths to that, and I feel, over the years, like 13 years later, we’ve developed and mentored and grown each other through our co-coaching. 

KW – Yeah, just, even you speaking about that first client, second client in particular I’m thinking of, and as you say, we each brought our individual strengths and then we did notice over time that oh, one of us is taking more of this role and one of us is taking more of the other role, and Sherry has always been developmental and she was like ok, so where do we both want to grow? What do we want to do more of? I’d like to do a bit more of this. And I was like ah – I’d like to be more you! There was a little bit of that going on! So it was, you know, for instance, I think initially I was probably more of the facilitator, the directing and time and Sherry was always, there’s been a natural, I wouldn’t say I was a natural coach, Sherry’s been the natural coach and she’d be observing, and just when she’d brought something in with the emotional field it was like ping! And I was like ok, I’m not doing that, I’m not doing the emotional field stuff so I want to do more of that, so then we’d develop each other and at the end it’d be in the debriefs, ok, what did you see each other do and what do we want more of each other, and then that’s where, as you say Sherry, we’ve grown more into that one instead of the dance, backwards and forwards, in the roles, it has become a co-coaching from our third entity. 

SM – Yeah. More fluid, yeah. Because that’s, I would say hanging out in that space is like the comfort zone for me, but being more of that, adding more of those education bits or doing more of that facilitating and being, I’m going to say front in that place is not that comfortable for me, or used to be that comfortable for me. 

KC – It’s amazing how much a relationship can hold. It feels like there’s more space for expansion, both in the self and then within the relationship, and so I wonder, because I know you both do some individual work as well and I wonder, from your experience in particularly this co-coaching relationship, what’s the value of co-coaching? 

SM – Well, I would say just what we mentioned about growing and developing each other. I would say that’s one of the values. You know, if others are looking to co-coach, you might find a co-coach who’s maybe got experience that you can learn and grow and develop from. I think to the value add, I mean, the ICF requires this, if you have a team of 15 or more, you need a co-coach, that’s what they’re saying. And then the diversity of, Kerry and I are complete opposites in a lot of ways, and in some ways we’re the same, as well, but we notice different things, we pick up different things that we’re noticing of the team, and bringing that, de-briefing with each other, what are you noticing, what are you picking up on? 

KW – And from the team perspective as well, having two people, I’m thinking two co-coaches, we haven’t yet maybe dabbled with three co-coaches at the front, we’ve played with that, we’ve talked about that many times as well. But, you know, whether it’s two, three, at the front of the room. For them to be able to see a system in front of them as well, with all our warts and all, and us, you know, maybe tripping over each other or, you know, whatever happens. And the beauty as well. And us, you know, them being able to observe us. Number one, show up who we are and actually be able to express what they’re going to see and use that to actually check in, well what’s over there, some of that beautiful parallel process work as well that can come from, you know, that’s a strong value of co-coaching. 

SM – Yeah, so being that model of a system in front of a system and using your relationship as, like Kerry said, that parallel process, what’s happening in our relationship. Like this is something that we, over time, what’s happening? Is this us or is this something that’s happening in the system because this feels different, this dynamic that’s happening between us, and we’re like ahhh, this must be what’s happening, it has more to do with the system that we’re coaching and so that parallel process like tapping into that, and that’s one of the values of having a co-coach as well, is that parallel process, reflecting, debriefing, having somebody else that, you know, is noticing different things. Ah – check your biases. 

KC – I wonder how IDIC, infinite diversity in infinite combinations, has shown up in your third entity, have you found that there’s just so many different versions of you playing with the other and vice versa? 

SM – Yeah, there’s… we would actually, before we go in and work with a team, getting a sense of the system, we have their outcomes, what they’re wanting to achieve in this team coaching, right, and we’ll go so what do you think is going to be really valuable to bring today? Like what do we need to bring in our third entity, like who do we need to be? And have those conversations. Do we need to be a little bit more provocative, challenging, more of a disruptor? That type of thing. And just setting those, you know, being intentional with what we’ve learned in ORSC and those metaskills. 

KW – And that’s been really valuable, Sherry, you’re making me think of the provocateur type piece. When we thought about that bit up front and checked in and then one of us might play that role a little bit more strongly, or like the, looks like they need to be bossed around or whatever, and then see what happens, because at least then we can adjust with the other co-coach because sometimes it’s like then there’s mass panic or they’re like why is this one doing this, and then we can sort of like come back in to balance, so to speak, with the other co-coach. Especially if they’re not looking at the wrong co-coaches, just said something challenging and they cannot even look at that person yet, they have somewhere else to go to recover and then we’ll talk about what just happened there. So we can play with that more. I feel more courageous with you Sherry, and with, we co-coach with others as well, but with a co-coach, yeah. 

SM – Yeah, I think there’s some neuroscience behind that, I don’t have all the theory in that but there is something around the, I think it’s called the polyvagal, like if I was in front of 15 or whatever people by myself I don’t know if I’d be so courageous when I first started coaching! So when you know you’ve got your co-coach with you and they’ve got your back, like, you know, you can mess up and your co-coach is there and they’ll pick it up or do something, or the other thing is, what else is valuable is sometimes you don’t know where to go! Right? You’re like ok, what’s the question asked, or you’ve kind of hit a wall. Your co-coach is there because you’re both holding this space, you’re both co-leading. I know this is a podcast and you can’t see my hands but you’re there together, side by side, both holding and are accountable and responsible for that space. 

KC – I love what you said when you introduced your relationship about learning and growing together as well, because obviously within ourselves we’re constantly trying to expand and grow into different parts of self, but in relationship, of course, there’s even more of that opportunity for Kerry’s playfulness to spark something in you, Sherry. And I wonder sort of together what you’ve learnt from this third entity dance, over 13+ years. 

SM – The first word that comes into my head is like, it’s so dynamic and I don’t even know what more to say to that. It’s dynamic, like it’s infinite. 2+2 is, we’ve said this many times, Kerry, is like infinity. Right? Like it’s, anything’s possible. 

KW – And I’m sitting here thinking is this anSMering the question – the word that keeps coming up for me, I think our third entity and what I’ve learnt about is stay. Because not so much, we’re talking about co-coaching and Sherry’s always brought the stay into our piece so I’ve got that from Sherry. So you have your co-coaching relationship in the room, but you also have your relationship out of the room and there’s plenty of places for things not to go so well, we’ve had our ups and downs and our vulnerabilities in our place, but we’ve always, always – I know I should never say always – but always up to now stayed and walked our talk around what’s working and what’s not working. 

SM – I feel like that’s, you know, once again, the value of having the co-coaching is you do walk your talk. And so when you’re in front of a system I just feel, you know because one of the things that I feel is really important in us being front co-coaching with the system is that integrity piece. And in 13 years of relationship, in and outside of the team coaching, it really is that, Kerry. 

KC – I can feel the dance between you both in this conversation. You are speaking as one voice and it’s a blend. And I love the fact, also, that your names rhyme, Sherry and Kerry, it’s the perfect combo for a third entity duo, isn’t it! 

SM – I think, Kerry, you, well I don’t think, Kerry came up with this joke when we were working with teams, just go ‘erry’ and one of us will anSMer. 

KW – I was sort of like ‘erry’, it’s sort of like the bubbliness of our third entity at times with some little sharp edges that come out time to time, but yeah, it’s like ‘erry’, just call us ‘erry’. 

KC – So talking to ‘erry’, I’m wondering, you’ve spoke about that alignment and how you can always trust that your third entity’s got it in some shape or form, what gets in the way of that happening because that’s not always what co-coaching looks like and I’m curious to find out perhaps some of the fail stories but also some of the things you’ve seen along the way that get in the way of that alignment with your co-coach. 

SM – You know, one of the things that comes to mind is not being honest. We would meet before working with the team, you know we do our check in and that, and not being honest about like what’s happening for you, not sharing, I guess what’s happening for you is the words that come to mind. Because anything that is happening with you or between you is getting in the way of you being aligned and showing up as your best co-coach, because it’s going to show up in the team coaching, in the room. 

KW – Yeah. I think other things that might get in the way are... it is those power, rank and privilege pieces which I think we’re still growing into being transparent with others with teams in the space, even from the point of view of who, think back to the beginning days, like who got the client initially? You know, so then we spent, we learnt something for our relationship, not saying that everyone has to do it this way at the very beginning. If one of us has the initial call we bring the other one in as quickly as possible, if that’s our co-coach to meet with the sponsors, as we’re even getting the work because otherwise they get, they don’t get the third-entity that’s going to be coaching and they get someone else and then they think hang on a minute, now it’s different. I thought we were buying this. So we learnt that sort of piece was like a signal to sort of noticing hang on, one of us has got privilege, or again, if one of us brought the work in or then knows more about that client and then the other one, you know, we’ve done some internal coaching where there’s a little more of that that might show up, at times then the other person coaches on the back foot, you know, it can feel, it doesn’t mean that they are really on the back foot but I know that I felt like that at times and I was like what’s that about? That’s just me, making up the, but being honest about that, what we both need to show up fully there together. 

SM – Kerry, that’s one of the things I remember most about our co-coaching, is you would always hold in that and like sharing everything, here’s what I learned about the client, and so just always, if you had a conversation, bringing me up to speed. 

KC – I think that’s such an important point around being aware of what you’re bringing to the relationship at that point, meeting each other where you’re at. I worked with a very experienced coach recently and I wasn’t feeling so well that day, I’d just had a migraine and I remember her saying to me, I finally admitted I’m actually not feeling 100%, she was like you are enough, you don’t need to be shiny, the material does the work. And it was such a relief to just tell her that, from that space then I could lean in with a level of trust that perhaps when I was a bit more guarded and worried about my energy levels I wasn’t able to do. And so I wonder if you’ve both had some of those experiences too, where you’ve really been with what you are and then in that space able to lean into what we are, now, together. 

SM – Absolutely, I think that goes back to what I was saying earlier about, you know, sharing what’s happening for you. I would be like oh, it’s my triggered self, I need to deal with it, that was my thing, like it’s all about me. But if it’s here, you know, you gotta, it’s between us, it’s in the relationship. So I always thought it was my thing to deal with but being open about sharing it, though, it also releases it, just like you said Katie, it’s like it just, I can let go of it. I feel like, it’s like putting out there and it’s like oh, it’s not a thing anymore! 

KW – I have to be careful on the other side, Sherry, because I can be like it is all about me and I’m feeling… and I come in like ah, I’m feeling this and this and this has happened, and then I’m like ok, hang on, how are you. So that balances between us as being really valuable, and I think sharing that with the team, even. 

KC – You lead from third-entity and there’s that whole process being led by third-entity, and you’re always leading from that energy, that energetic space that lives between the two of you. 

SM – Another value that’s coming up for me is not everyone likes me, you know! So I think that’s the other value of having a co-coach. When you’re leading from third-entity, I believe there’s something, there is that other magical piece that happens and it’s not about Kerry or me, I just feel like, you know, it’s so different from having like a one-on-one coach. 

KC – Mmm. 

SM – You build that relationship. You have 15 people on a team in front of you, of course not everyone’s going to gravitate towards you, right? But that third entity, you know, and the dynamic of that, I feel like it’s more likely that they’re gonna connect with that. 

KW – And I’m also going to say, and on the contrary, if they don’t like our third entity, they’re irritated – which we have had that – we can huddle up, we can, you know, sort of get back together and go ok, well what’s the value of that? And again, then we can dig in from that place and then it’s not about us being our third entity even liked or us being liked, how do we, there is a connection, whether they like that connection or not, how do we use that? Again, that courage word is coming back. That it’s easier to lean into that from that space. 

KC – Mm. 

SM - And then two, depending on how comfortable you are with conflict, right? You having a co-coach can be very valuable. 

KC – Yeah I wonder, when it comes to coaching, obviously sometimes we have to ask the hard question and the question that might make us not liked, might make us, even maybe the enemy at times. And maybe there’s more space for it to be less personal when we’re leading from third-entity as opposed to it being just me at the front of the room. Is that what you both sense in that space? 

SM – Yeah. 

KW – Yeah, that 100% is coming from that space. And again, part of that is educating the client, as well, which you can do that, I feel like we do that more over time around that, so you know, we’re going to ask a question now that you might not like, you know! Or you might be irritated with us, or we’re going to be a bit more like this today as we sort of go along with them on that journey, we can actually even, it’s that transparency as well, so we start to speak to that and see what comes from that as well and have that open conversation with them. 

KC – And so, of course, 13 years of experience together is gonna create quite a lot of foundations to fall back on. What’s it like when you meet with another coach and you co-coach when you haven’t got that 13 years behind you. How do you go into those relationships and create that alignment? 

SM – Yeah, that’s a great question, Katie. So, it really is, I’m gonna say, it’s, you start with trust, right? So you’re asking each other questions, trying to, I’m not saying trying, but you’re working towards that trust, building that trust. And it is, you’re being vulnerable with each other, so sharing like your worse fears, your best hopes for the co-coaching, the relationship, the team coaching, all of that. Sharing where you want to grow, develop, what might be your strengths, what might be some of your weaknesses, or challenges, that type of thing, but it really is having that type of conversations, and I feel like not every co-coach wants to go there. 

KW – Yeah. In more recent years I’ve co-coached with newer coaches, like newer to coaching, newer to team coaching as well, and because of my co-coaching relationship with Sherry and what we’ve learned, like this is a process as Sherry has said, and I think being at that point of being vulnerable, even like being then vulnerable thinking oh no, they might think that I’m meant to know what to do here and it’s not all going to blow up with the client and we did design properly with the sponsor and, you know, still those messes, to sort of speak to that. I think initially when I started co-coaching with some other co-coaches, I think I wasn’t as aware of, I brought Sherry in too much. There was the ghost of Sherry, sometimes, looking back. So being aware of those ghosts of your previous co-coaches as well, but you know, the good experience and the not so good experiences, then I think that’s the vulnerability that you’re speaking too Sherry, that you really bring that out and work through it with your co-coach, you know, whoever they are and wherever you are on your co-coaching journey with that person as well. 

SM – Yeah. 

KC – That’s such a good point about our preferences, I didn’t think about how our preferences in co-coaching can lead into biases if we’re not aware of them. 

SM – Absolutely. I’m just thinking, like as Kerry was speaking, it’s sometimes like oh my goodness, I’m comparing now and I need to let that go, I’m like lean into this third entity. 

KC – And how do you lean in when you’re not getting that level of vulnerability that leads to that trust that you look for? I’ve had it recently and I’m sure you’ve both experienced it too, where you’re not feeling like they’re being quite so real with you. How do you hold those kinds of situations? 

SM – You know, I will ask the question of like what’s between us? Because I’m sensing that there’s something between us. And see if anything comes up there. Or, I may even, because once again, we’re wanting them to be vulnerable, so we gotta be vulnerable first in sharing that, you know, this is what I’m sensing, how’s that landing over there? 

KC – I guess you are a voice of the system, of that system, so speaking up is important in the spirit of deep democracy! 

SM – Yeah. 

KW – Yeah. I’m just sitting thinking I don’t think I have anything to add there, other than I know that I’ve held back and not been as vulnerable as I could have been, as soon as I could have been. And I think, because I was trying to do, am I judging, or… well I’m wanting this, but I need to dial this and this back on what I’m doing because that’s making my co-coach feel uncomfortable, how I might be showing up, and it didn’t bring it, as soon as my co-coach who was super vulnerable and brilliant in that way, so they taught me in that space. And I knew it already, I’ve co-coached with Sherry but I wasn’t doing my work as strongly and as quickly there as I could of done. So yeah, we sat down and worked through that and had a wonderful time co-coaching together over many years, and I’ve had a number of co-coaches along the years as well. So it is, and I can’t think of a time where it hasn’t worked to some degree, you know, like I haven’t had an experience where, I can’t think that my co-coach hasn’t been vulnerable to some degree, along the, apart from myself, taking the time in that occasion. Yeah. So it’s me that wasn’t being as vulnerable as I could have been. 

SM – Yeah. The other thing that’s coming up too is, we’ve been, like I would say this is the longest partnership in co-coaching relationship, with Kerry, and it’s hard not to- the other co-coaching, sometimes are just one offs, right? And like it’s like uh, you know, and being ok with, it’s not meant to go on for 13 years or more as well, so, yeah, there’s also that and being ok with that too. 

KC – Systems have their life cycle, don’t they? 

SM – They do. 

KC – You said something right at the beginning of the conversation about early on it became, it was a bit more ping pongy, one of you would hold one role and the other would hold another role, and I know that can also show up for some co-coaches in one person will hold this exercise and then the other person will say this bit, and I wonder, what are some of the obstacles you feel get in the way of people really co-coaching, as opposed to just having two people at the front of the room. 

SM – You know, I wanna say, trying to be polished, like, or get it right, or it needs to look a certain way, I think that’s one of the things that Kerry’s really taught me is, we don’t need to be polished, we don’t need to be perfect, and just showing up as ourselves and whatever that looks like. Yeah. So, I think that’s what gets in the way, like sometimes people get these roles and it’s like you’re going to say this, you’re going to do this bit and I’ll do this bit and take these pieces, but the other thing that happens with that is then we’re missing stuff, right, if we’re not just both holding that space and being present and actively listening, it’s like ok well she’s doing that and I’ll just focus on my bit. 

KW – Yeah, you hit the nail on the head, it’s that being perfect, and it’s also the fear of uncertainty that comes alongside some of that perfect piece. I think you went, I was going to say sometimes it’s people’s belief that this is what co-leading, I think some people haven’t experienced, either in their own life or in others, a really sort of being one. Really collaborating fully with others. So I don’t think they’ve had that experience and they don’t, they haven’t got a model for it. So they don’t even think that co-leading is from one, they’ve never experienced third entity and so they don’t even know that that exists. But I think, even if they did know it exists, underneath it is those things you pointed out, Sherry. 

SM – Yeah, you know, and as you’re saying that Kerry, the other thing that’s coming up is oh my god, she’s saying that now, now what do I do because I wasn’t expecting that. And some people, like you said, you don’t know how to be with uncertainty and how to blend, right? Just blend it with that. 

KW – Blend, or if they get completely lost, go you know what, I don’t actually know where we are right now! Can I just have a moment and have a chance to come back? Again, there’s a whole range of ways of being with that, and normally we blend in but occasionally there’s those things and normally the teams will all laugh, it’s like oh, that happens, does that ever happen to you too? Oh yeah. And then that’ll be the thing that drops in, when we use that, when we show that up, then there’s the conversation there around the model of what leadership and co-leadership looks like. 

KC – I think that’s such a great point around how some people don’t even know what it means to co-coach or co-lead. After a front of the room lead recently we had a question around so how do you divide it? Does one of you say this bit and… and they thought we had a script! And I realized how strange and unfamiliar that way of leading is, leading from one voice even though there’s two of you. And so, to someone who’s not experienced that, that leading from third entity before, what advice do you have for them to lean more into that and trust that space with another co-coach or leader? 

SM – This is advice I like – just go with it! Try it out. The other thing that comes to mind too is in all of our team coaching, nobody’s ever asked for, you know, we want to be more accountable and responsible or, you know, we want to be more ok with uncertainty and ambiguity. And that’s been kind of like the outcomes that they get, and they’re like oh, this is, you know, they’re more able to be with uncertainty and ambiguity and they feel more accountable and responsible for the space for the team and those types of things. And it’s, I feel like that’s what co-coaching and leading from our third entity has done in our team coaching. 

KW – Yeah, I’m thinking, just even of our whole conversation here today, the biggest advice is sort of to be real in the moment with each other, or in the break if you can’t do it, there’s a limit to how much you can do to disturb the system, but in the break or after, just keep practicing with that one piece and that’s going to, you know, that’s going to be the place where you learn and where you grow the most. 

SM – Yeah. I would totally, 100% agree with that. Like, I learn more with being in relationship versus being on my own. I learn more about myself and that’s, in the 13 years that we’ve been co-coaching and that, I’ve learn the most in that. 

KC – I think that’s what’s so refreshing and unique about this work, when we’re talking about organizational and relationship systems coaching, of course sometimes it will just be one person at the front of the room and we have our own system of me to work with, but my gosh, if we can model that systemic intelligence at the front of the room, that mirroring then becomes just ever more exciting and informative for them as a group. I know for me it’s a big weight off my shoulders when I’ve got a co-coach, compared to if I’m there on my own. It’s just, yeah, it’s a very powerful piece to lead and to live from, as well. 

KW – Yeah. 

SM – Yeah. You’re not having to hold it all yourself. 

KC – No! 

KW – When you say that to live from, like we were just, Sherry and I were talking yesterday and yeah, it is for me, in those co-partnerships where I’ve learn the most, like I had a brilliant partnership with my dad who was my sports coach but he really held it in a co way, so I had this beautiful relationship with him not only as my dad but as a coach, and then worked with Mecange in Tanzania, we were co-facilitators for like four years in East Africa, and then Sherry’s been my third like strong, strong partnership and I have, I’ve learnt the most from that. Obviously I have my husband who I also have that relationship that I learn through as well over the years. But you know, with these three, four relationships, these are the ones that have stood out in my life up to now. And I get a bit teary eyed so thank you Sherry, yeah. 

SM – Ditto. Yeah. 

KC – That’s beautiful. And just to say, full disclaimer to our listeners, we didn’t plan any of this conversation, it wasn’t this is Sherry’s bit, Kerry’s bit, Katie’s bit, it was very much us dancing together and thank you, it’s been a real delight to dance with you both. 

KW – Thank you Katie. It’s such a flowing move, how you bring all this together with us, so thank you. 

SM – Yes. Much appreciated, thank you, it was a great dance 

[Music outro begins 34:28] 

KC – A big thanks to Kerry and Sherry for that playful dance with their third entity across this episode. Here are my key takeaways. A co-coaching relationship is a great opportunity to learn and grow individually and together. What roles do you typically step into or shy away from? And what do you lean on your co-coach for? Debriefs are a great opportunity to share some of your stretch spaces so that you can continue to develop your range using the power of your coaching relationship. Co-coaching is a great way to model some of the benefits of relationship systems intelligence to a team. As co-coaches you’re modelling the power of focusing on the relationship and leading from third entity and this can provide excellent learning for the group. When co-coaching, your relationship in the room and out of the room matters. If you’re not aligned then it’ll have an impact on the emotional field, so a key part of co-coaching involves walking the talk. Practice the work you share with your clients by taking the time upfront to develop your relationship, align around coaching outcomes and design your alliance together. Power, rank and privilege can impact the way you show up with your co-coach. Designing around these upfront can help to prevent any issues showing up and can provide you with a roadmap for navigating if they do. What do you both need to show up fully together in this session? Transparency is key to successful co-coaching, having open and honest conversations will enable you to design your alliance and redesign if necessary, with your full selves. And the more you are able to hold in your co-coaching relationship, the more you will be able to hold in that of your clients. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole. 

[Music outro 37:22 – End]