In this episode, Katie talks with co-founder of CRR Global, Martia Fridjhon, about systems inspired coaching. Across this episode we explore:
Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
In this episode, Katie talks with co-founder of CRR Global, Martia Fridjhon, about systems inspired coaching. Across this episode we explore:
Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
MF – Marita Fridjhon
[Intro 00:00 – 00:09]
KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode, I’m talking with CEO of CRR Global, Marita Fridjhon about systems inspired coaching. Across this episode we explore the value of brining a systems inspired approach to coaching, how to step in with the systems inspired coaching approach when working with individuals, using yourself and your own system within as a resource for coaching and meeting the client where they’re at. Alongside heading up CRR Global, Marita Fridjhon is a mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations. So without further ado I bring you, Marita Fridjhon.
KC – Marita, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. I’m always so delighted to have you on the show.
MF – Same here, it’s always what is the conversation yield for us, what is it gonna be yielding for us today? So it’s always a little bit unknown but always anticipated and can’t wait for it.
KC – And so we have a title for today, a topic, systems inspired coaching. So, I wonder, Marita, if we could start by exploring what is systems inspired coaching and how does it relate to systems inspired leadership? People may have heard of the book that you and Frank wrote around systems inspired leadership and so how does systems inspired coaching relate to and differ from SIL?
MF – I think that how I want to start is to say that our lens today is gonna be on coaching, our focus is gonna be on the coaching industry and coaching, but the concept of systems inspired, I think I mentioned to you before, is something that reminds me of decades ago there were these ‘Dummy’ books that were so popular, whether is writing for dummies or it is whatever for dummies, I think that there is something like systems inspired fill in the blank, whether it’s systems inspired parenting, systems inspired leadership, systems inspired whatever, because I do think that at the heart of all that we do and we are striving for is for it to be systems inspired, that is comes from the wisdom of the larger whole. But it would be great today, really just look at it, what does it mean for coaching?
KC – Yeah, because there’s different types of coaching and I know many of our listeners have lots of different coaching qualifications under their belts, and so how does this differ from other types of coaching?
MF – Yeah. I’m not sure that it’s exactly different in many cases, but I think it gives us a little bit of a different way of looking at coaching which is part of what I want to share. And again, for listeners, whether you are coaching individuals or whether you are coaching couples or partnerships, or whether you are coaching teams or even a larger organization, please listen from the place that you are occupying, the niche that you are coaching from. Because what we’re going to be talking from in systems inspired coaching fits all, it’s a different lens that we’re using. And one of the things that we talk about is that the first system is self, so, and you and I have spoken about it that within me there are so many different voices, as is there are multiple voices within the client that sits across from you. Multiple different opinions in the minds of couples who sit in a conversation, a coaching conversation with you. So it’s always, to some extent we can think of it as team coaching because there’s an inside team as you talk about in the podcast with Cynthia Loy Darst and the book Inside Team. So, from a systems inspired coaching perspective it really is about in a different way revealing the system to itself, so that the system can begin to, from a systemic perspective and from the wisdom of the team, or all of me, not just the one that’s sitting talking to you on the podcast this morning, there are many different parts of me that are participating in this. So from a systems inspired perspective, and a systems inspired coaching perspective, it really is about gathering, and the question is how do we do that, gathering the information from the team or the organization itself so that we can have that as our agenda for coaching. Because one of the things that ICF and other accreditations in coach training are looking for is that when we coach it really is the client’s agenda. Systems inspired coaching puts that front and centre. What is it that you, the system, wants to work on today? Wants to talk about? Not just the team leader. Not just the most prominent person in the room, but what is it that the whole system needs to discuss and unravel? So that’s the whole notion of systems inspired coaching is how do we truly find the client’s agenda and that can only be done if we really evoke the input of the entire system. Not just what I think as a coach the agend needs to be, or what the manager who employs me to coach the team think we should work on. Really is about, and that, by the way, is one of the conversations that I on a regular basis have with when we get called in to come and coach a team, or coach a department, there’s always a sponsor and this is a critical conversation with the sponsor of your coaching, to let them know, would love to know, is that you are looking for what it is that you think needs to happen, but please know that what it is that that system is needing because that’s the agenda that we need to work to. Sometimes it becomes a complex conversation with sponsors that we really take a stand for, we cannot just download your agenda on the team. We can share the agenda that you have and that we come in here with, but then we need to align with what that then looks like as their agenda, because that’s where we need to go.
KC – This is so interesting Marita because I think that I, I presumed our focus would be on the session itself, and as always you take it to that wider lens and this is about everything that happens before the session as well?
MF – I totally agree with you there, I notice for listeners that Katie and I are on video so we can see one another, and when you just said that, Katie, you did, intuitively, you moved back with your body, you spread your hands out and you moved back. It’s that when we go into that team or that couple or that partnership we need to back away from that which we perceived prior to going there. So that we can see, and again, if we talk about the systems inspired leadership competencies of hearing, seeing and sensing, we need to be able to step back to get the systems inspired view through hearing, seeing and sensing what is in front of us, rather than all the information that preceded this meeting, to be foreground.
KC – Yeah, and it’s a way of being that doesn’t just sort of happen when you’re in the room, I realize it’s everything before, the conversations with the manager or the sponsor, all of that creates this systems inspired coaching approach.
MF – Yes, because that is information as well, and because we are systems inspired and wanna be systems inspired there’s a different complexity when we work in corporate environments and manifesting organizational change because there is so much input that influences and precedes the coaching interactions that we’re having. We need to be able to reveal that to the client team that we are working with, that here is part of what we hear and sense and see in the rest of the organization, so just need for you to hear and see and sense that as well so that we can get your input and what it is that you need and want, that we can get that perspective as well. So there’s a very different complexity to it, it’s not just strateging. It really is, and that takes a little bit more time, so from a systems inspired coaching perspective, that phase of meeting is really, really important. We need to be able to reveal to the team that we have had different meetings. We have had different input. Here's some of what we can reflect to you in summary, given that, let’s now look at where it is and what it is that you want to bring to the foreground or to our attention. But it really is that presenting that balcony view where everybody is represented and we can then begin from there to meet what is in front of us right now.
KC – To come from that systems inspired coaching space you have to be aware of all of the systems you’re navigating to get to the room with that team, say.
MF – I love what you’re saying Katie because that is, and part of that requires from us as coaches to really focus on our own vertical development. I need to know, I need to rehearse what are the voices inside of me, what are the reactions inside of me when I anticipate going into this session, because I need to get awareness of that because it’s those voices, those opinions that I don’t have awareness of or that I don’t navigate with that will impact my ability to be systems inspired and to work with their agenda. It does take, it puts the onus on us as coaches to really reflect and look at ourselves as well, because the me who walks into that conversation may be a judgmental one, or maybe one that violently agrees with what the manager just told us about the team that they want us to coach. That doesn’t allow for this space to become systems inspired by the team in front of me. It’s not always easy and we will fail.
KC – Yeah!
MF – But that’s a different challenge.
KC – So many layers or levels to this work, I think that’s what I’m realizing in this conversation. When you were saying about stepping back, I think I thought well, being aware of the systems that you navigate with regards to the manger, the HR or the sponsor, I didn’t think about the systems of me as a coach and so systems inspired coaching is as much for the coach as system one as it is for the clients.
MF – I think so and just, off topic that you will probably be too, be aware of, is the lawnmowers are going on outside my house. I don’t know whether you can hear it but it’s similar to the interruption that we do sometimes bring.
KC – So that’s in your system right now?
MF – That’s in my system, and again, one of things that we really are in the complexity of what we’re talking about what we talk about systems inspired coaching because it also, there’s something that we need to be aware of that we talk about as parallel process, that there is something going on in me that also is probably going on in the system. Something going on in the system that is probably already a parallel process to what’s going on out there in the world. Just think about being in conversation. So let’s put coaching aside for a moment and just think about being in a conversation with a friend who holds very different views from where you are. So now I know I’m going to have dinner with a friend who thinks and feels very differently than I do about topics, whether that is abortion rights, whether that is a political thing, whether that is climate change… whatever it is, and then just before we go to dinner, on the way driving there, I listen to a newscast that gave me terrible news about something that I feel strongly about, let’s just say climate change. And I know that the friend I’m meeting with will say that’s a hoax. And so now the me that is meeting my friend who is saying climate change isn’t really, it’s always been there, I’ve just been triggered by something that I’ve heard on the news, that’s a parallel process that’s happening out there that evokes something in me that I’m now already entering my dinner date with my friend. Can you see how we are constantly impacted by the things around and outside of us that are parallel or similar versions of who we are, parallel process, similar versions of the client that I walk into. Unless we can pause to just reflect on all of those, it’s not easy to be systems inspired as a coach and be inspired by what’s in front of me rather than be triggered by what happened outside or what I make up about the team.
KC – No it’s not, it certainly isn’t, and it makes me think that, I guess the theory of systems, it feels like systems is stuck, there’s the me system, there’s the we system, there’s the wider system, but they’re not, they’re very…
MF – Interdependent.
KC – Yes! Exactly.
MF – So again, you can feel how when we talk about systems inspired coaching it is beyond the tools, skills, models and academic knowledge that we have as a trained professional coach. There’s this other piece that is about the practice of awareness around parallel process, around the system of me, the system that I’m reacting to when I’m listening to the news, the system that I make up is in front of me based on the interview I had with the sponsor. Those reflections, those are the things that we need to be able to do as professional coaches before we can actually sit down with a client in service of their agenda, and that is not easy. But if we can begin to create the practices of just before I go into that room, before I turn on Zoom, just sit with awareness of the noise of the lawnmower outside my window that’s impacting our process here. And how do I choose to respond to that? How do we choose to incorporate it because we have no choice over it? That’s the nature of systems inspired coaching that really, I think, calls us forward to deep vertical development for ourselves. And how to be with things.
KC – Yeah, it feels as if it somewhat includes and transcends Viktor Frankl’s quote around between stimulus and response there’s a space. Because that space is always evolving and changing given that we’re in a constant state of emergence with all the systems we live within.
MF – That’s, again, you know it’s a principle that we talk about in RSI and Relationship Systems Intelligence, that systems are in a constant state of emergence. I didn’t have an appointment with the gardening team to be here 15 minutes into our sessions, they came early. Now, how do we include that and transcend to remain engaged in our conversation while including all our listeners, probably, in the sound of my gardening effort outside the window today? It’s all part of the reality that we occupy and that….
KC – Yeah…
MF – How do we learn and evolve and include that, and to use your phrase of Frankl, how to include that and transcend and remain present and evolving anyway?
KC – Yeah, because I guess in Frankl’s phrase ‘between stimulus and response there’s a space’, the stimulus is a mix of systems and the response is your own system me, so there’s always there’s this sort of dance and negotiation of different systems between your own system.
MF – That’s great. But also, what you make me think when you say that is what are some of the ways that we as coaches can actually do that? Because as coaches if we want to be systems inspired we do need to reveal some of our own system as well. Which is part of what I did in the call with you and say the lawnmower is just outside my window, how do we work with that? As a coach that is part of my meeting with them. Not to burden them but to acknowledge what is there and then to find out what is the disturbance that they are aware of as we are sitting down to do that. So revealing the system to itself often may need to start with me, saying I, this is what is going on for me, I really want to know, as your coach, what is happening across there for you? And sometimes I may need to reveal something about myself, a distraction, a something, that makes it safer for the team to then emerge with something that they might have guarded again earlier on.
KC – So, systems inspired coaching as it relates to individual coaching. I want to talk a bit more about this, because I’m aware when we talk about teams or partnerships about ping ponging, we can get locked in with one person or the other, but how can we stop ourselves getting locked in with that one version of that person and maybe forget our own resource, ourself, and forget that they’ve got other parts of self that maybe aren’t showing up in them.
MF – I think it’s one of the reasons why we want, why there’s this emerging movement in the coaching industry about the demand for coaches to be supervised. Because I think in systemic supervision what we want to do is truly reflect on all the parts of me that is engaged in the coaching with you, and we want to do the same with the clients across from us which is part of why creating a paper constellation which is in our training, is one of the go-to ways in which to do that work. It would be really simple to, in service of my client’s agenda, ask the client what are all the different things that shows up for you when you consider what you want to be coached on? And draw a circle, and inside the circle what are some of the different things that you want to tackle? And just begin to draw a circle of which other things that are most important for you that are right in the center of the circle? I’m not even talking about who the person is, now I’m looking for the agenda so that we can find out what is it that you want coaching on? And once I begin to do something like that with them, it takes them out of the strategic mind of ok, I want to be coached on that, I want to be coached on that, I want to be coached on… to the reflection of what are the topics. Because that gives us more of a systems inspired agenda for the individual coaching that we’re gonna be doing. And then once we have broken the ice or crossed the edge around that it might be really easy to go again and say now I get really curious about who are the different selves in you that are coming to this coaching. I know when I first went to coaching there was a self in me that said you’re a therapist, what do you wanna do with coaching, you already are a multidisciplinary… So, there was just one that was really dismissive. It was important for me to know that one, because if that one goes to the coach training with me it’s a problem! So again, I think from a systems inspired coaching perspective in coaching individuals, coaching teams but in individuals as well, what is the vulnerable part of you that you are willing to share so that they have a little bit of an access point to you as a normal human being as well. That might create more safety for them to reveal some of the voices inside of them who comes into the coaching, and then we have a whole different way we can begin to work with that. But you can see how, whatever the ways are that we can create normalcy for the fact that not a single one of us have only one opinion about anything, it just isn’t, it just gets more complex when there are five of us with a hundred different opinions about the same thing.
KC – Yeah. And then, I guess that’s why we need this work, systems inspired coaching, but why it’s so complicated, because most of us aren’t fully aware about our own system, let alone all the other systems going on in the world.
MF – Yes. And there’s something about, particularly with individuals, sometimes it’s an easier access point to, without getting too essencey, to really invite people to explore all their different selves that are showing up in coaching. And which are the voices that really feels like they need to be heard on this set today? So just normalizing that reflection, I think reflective practice is one of the most important components of systems inspired work. Unless we can reflect on what is going on for me and then get curious about what’s going on for you. I don’t, as a coach, always have to share all of what’s going on for me, but I need to be able to navigate that inside my own self while I’m sitting with you, so you can feel how there’s a maturity and an evolution that all of us need to work with, and that is why supervision is so important for us as coaches. Because I can then sit down with the supervisor who’s doing this kind of reflective supervision and talk about all the different selves of me that showed up when the client spoke about fill in the blank, because once I can do that kind of reflection I can go with new insight and new self management when I go into my next session with my client.
KC – So, would you say reflective practice, when it’s done properly, is actually helping clients to step back and take the balcony view?
MF – I think so. And one of the biggest challenges for reflective practice at the moment is the changes that are happening in our world at the moment are so fast.
KC – Yeah.
MF – And the bad things that are happening that needs action planned around it, there’s not much at the moment that promotes or invites us to reflective practice. Most of what happens around us is evoking speed to get something fixed and I think that’s one of the things that we need to normalize and acknowledge, whether as an individual client or a team, and just unpack some of that so that we can just have a different view of it and just decide that voice for now I’m going to put aside. That, I’m not gonna judge it but I’m gonna put it aside. It’s not gonna be useful here. That voice, I’m gonna… anything like that, whether you have people do simple drawings or write it down or whatever it is but have the invitation to explore the complexity of me as a client, because that is what you need as the coach in order to meet that client.
KC – Yeah. I’ve noticed it’s powerful sometimes even to say to clients, say they’re mid-flow, so there’s a part of you that’s frustrated right now. Even just to frame it in that way…
MF – That’s right, that’s right.
KC - …I think can take that edge off it being all of who they are.
MF – Well that and is something about giving the client permission to correct us or to give us feedback. So part of the designed alliance is I may say something, it doesn’t feel right to you, I may say something that you might even feel offensive about, can we have an agreement that you’ll call me out? Because the moment I get called out I can return to the client to find the answer inspired by that client system. I can go back and go ok coach me, tell me what’s the better question? Now it’s not my question anymore, it’s the question that’s inspired through this system of the client. So it really ends up with a, in many cases, a very different interactive process. If we truly become systems inspired and truly give things back to the client, to upload their brilliance instead of download mine, which I thought I did when I asked that brilliant question. But it wasn’t, so teach me, what would be a better question? Because in that immediately it provides me with a different access point to really meet the client where they are.
KC – Love that. To upload their brilliance rather than download mine. I think when I was starting to coach I had this sense of needing to be shiny and needing to be some kind of expert, and yet I noticed the more sort of humble I am and the more open I am to I’m going to get it wrong, you’re the expert on your systems, I’m meeting you here, the more actually I’m working with my system, I guess, and all of the parts of me, the more they’re able to sort of see their own systems and then, to your point, sort of access their own information from that.
MF – Yes, that’s it. And to hold that information is a valid next point for us to discuss in terms of potential future actions and stuff like that, because very often, I don’t know how to say this well without sounding, I don’t know what, but very often because we’ve done all the work that we’ve done, because we’ve done all the training we’ve done, because, because, because, we often think we have the answer but the answer that I have from my life experience at my level of evolution may not be the right answer to meet the client with what is possible and accessible for them to do, and that is my only task. To meet them where they are and to focus and execute what sets them up for success. Because if I go my way I might set them up for failure.
KC – Yeah. I wonder if this resonates. I was working, I was running a training a couple of months ago and there was someone in the room who really started to work the EQ, the emotional intelligence dimension, so much so that it was at the expense of the other people’s learning in the group. They wanted to share their opinions so much to the detriment of other people and I think, I wonder as coaches if we can almost end up in that place, where we have all this emotional intelligence but we’re not reading the room?
MF – I think so, and I think that there’s also, I think most people that become coaches have a commitment and a desire for things to be better, not only for myself but for the people that I coach. They pay me money, after all. So I think that there’s an over-commitment to service that they will recognize as having helped the person that paid for the service, and sometimes that’s going too fast and too far too fast. The true value of what we can bring is for the client to be true to where they are in this moment in time, true to what they’re willing to take on for the next step, sometimes to be courageous enough to challenge and say can you step a little bit further, but to then be more courageous when the client says no, for today that’s what I’m going to do. Let it be. Perfect. So I think it’s that, it’s a dance that is beyond, that really truly is part of human evolution that we as coaches need to model and walk the talk of and then meet the level of evolution that is in front of you. And then to also know when that is not my client because I can’t do it, that’s system’s inspired as well, if there is a place that I come against, up against a client where it feels out of integrity and an ethical violation of my responsibility, I need to know that and I need to be able to say no. So I think that that’s another part of being systems inspired as a coach, to say no, not for me, not now in a way that’s non-judgmental and honors what I can’t.
KC – I think what I love about this approach, systems inspired… whether it’s systems inspired coaching or systems inspired parenting, systems inspired partnership, whatever it may be, it takes into consideration that we don’t operate in a vacuum and I think things are simpler that way aren’t they, when we think about ourselves in this bubble, but it’s just not the case, it’s not reality.
MF – I think so. And again, this different reality that each of us exists in, we just assume that we experience the same thing – we don’t. We may be across from the same thing but our experience of that thing could be radically different and leaving space to find out about that is what’s truly systems inspired. That’s not always easy. And I want to always have it be ok to not be ok with what it is that you as a coach can’t meet. Because if you’re across from something that you cannot meet because it feels like you’re not capable, it violates your values, your… whatever it is, have the courage to say no and trust that there is somebody else who’s work it probably is to work with that person, it’s not yours. And it doesn’t come from a place of I’m better than you so go away, it doesn’t, it just comes from a place of admitting that I can’t go there and have that be ok.
KC – What a powerful example of systems inspired coaching. Taking not advantage but leaning into the wider systems of other coaches that might have the expertise that you don’t, or that experience that you don’t.
MF – Yeah and again for me, and this is a personal choice I think for all of us, my biggest work with myself at the moment is to be able to say, instead of saying you’re not evolved enough for me to work with, just switch it to I’m not evolved enough. I may not have to say that to the client but in my own mind I need to be able to say I am not evolved enough yet to handle that.
KC – So interesting. So, as opposed to they’re not evolved enough, I’m not evolved enough to work with them – wow. That’s a fascinating way of sort of flipping it on its head!
MF – Yeah. Because we are so ready for judgement. If I can’t do something it is because you are wrong. Now you may well be wrong but I can’t work with that wrong, and one of the things that so often happens is that there are some of these kinds of conversations that is on the coaching level and not on the, well, let me use an example, I’m not able to say I don’t know, when somebody kills somebody, that’s just wrong and I can’t even say that I need to be more evolved to be able to work with somebody like that, so you know, all of these things have wide eagle wing span and it’s not always applicable everywhere, I am at the moment talking about people that we see show up in the coaching world as clients. I’m not making a judgement to say that I need to be evolved enough to work with a murderer. There are people who may well be but it’s so far off my own integrity scale that I can’t go there. So it’s complex. There, there’s not one answer for everything.
KC – That’s such a good point though, I definitely heard that, that rhetoric around oh, they’re just not coachable, and really that’s putting it on them, when what if really it’s just I’m not evolved enough to work with that yet or to bring that out, that changes it.
MF – Yeah, try it on for yourself, it’s not always gonna be applicable, but I think for me too, the less... and this is personal beliefs again that ties you to values, different values for everybody that’s on the call, but I think that there is more evolution from really doing less harm or no harm than there is from harming, and we are in a profession as coaches where we need to take a stand for what we believe in ethically, but how do we take that stance without doing irreparable harm? It’s not always possible.
KC – No.
MF – But difficult questions to sit with.
KC – On the World Work podcast with Stephen Light and Jeffrey Wotherspoon, there was a quote from Jeffrey around people don’t change through shame, and I think that’s such a great point, like if we have judgement or even maybe a sense of shame about this person and how they’re showing up in the world, they’re probably not going to see a behavioral shift with the way you’re working with them.
MF – Yeah. I think there’s a lot of value in that. So, and one size doesn’t fit all so I think all of us need to make that call, but it definitely is a call to make when I’m thinking from a systems inspired coaching perspective, I need to be really clear with my own self and my own level of evolution and what I’m capable of that I truly say yes to a client, that I am willing, able and prepared to meet where they are as a system. If I can’t do that then it really isn’t my client because I won’t be able to make progress with a client from a systems inspired, as inspired by them, moves and shift on their agendas because I will continue to impose mine, and that’s not a good thing I think for any one of us.
KC – No, and it comes back to what you said before about what’s mine to do, you said that on another podcast and I think that feels so relevant here, we can’t coach everyone, we’re not gonna have probably all that range in a lifetime, and so what’s mine to do?
MF – Yeah, and I think the other thing I want to comment RE systems inspired and that whole thing about interdependence is I have had bigger personal development from the most difficult clients I’ve worked with because I was put to the test of really being with something that was important for them but I couldn’t quite see why and how. I’m not talking about murder, I’m talking about life decisions, different things, and staying the distance gave me very different perspectives on human suffering and why some people are doing what they’re doing, and to be able to sit with that and sit with them until they can find their own evolutionary process. That is what systems inspired coaching is, and it’s not always easy.
KC – No. And they say the more we hold in our own sort of system, the more we can hold in our clients…
MF – I think so.
KC - …so it has to be both, right, we have to be continually developing if we’re gonna be there for our clients.
MF – So you know, just listening and being in this conversation with you what I’m aware of is just the difficult journey that all are in in the world at the moment, just with so much chaos everywhere, and just, you know, that statement for all of us that it’s ok to not be ok, and to find the places where we can have the conversation about not being ok, whether that is in supervision for you as a coach, or whether that is colleague or a friend, because we too need to find the places where we can navigate our own systems inspired evolution and our own coach systems inspired journey. We can’t always be on the service side. We need to make sure that we have the places where we can do our own reflection, where we can walk our own journeys. And sometimes it’s through our clients and it might be really, really good for your client to be able to go to a session and say you know, the thing that we worked on last time and that you’re now reporting back on how it went changed me as well. So I want to say thank you. So there’s something about nothing is ever a one way street. So, in systems inspired coaching I think we anticipate not only the evolution of the client and our role in it to be systems inspired, but also to anticipate that we, I, me, my own self systemically will also be evolved as a result of this progress, it’s not a one way street. It goes both directions.
KC – Yeah, I think we’d love to think that we can just show up as the same version of self every time because that’s easier to manage, but it’s just not the reality of life.
MF – Yeah, I think so, I think so. And you know, so much of it also depends on our experience, it depends on our personal style of who we are, so everything we’re talking about will look and feel different to the people that are listening and nobody’s response, nobody’s execution will be the same as everybody else's, because we are all uniquely different and I think that’s the piece that this is about, how am I uniquely different and how do I get to know more of that in me so that I can be more open to meet that which is uniquely different in you and be in dialogue with that. Because that is what brings the agenda for you as a client.
KC – I just had the image of lots of sort of energy waves between all the different systems, and whether we’re conscious of it or not they are there and they’re having an impact and so we might as well navigate it consciously and intentionally, both our own system and then meet the systems that are in front of us too.
MF – I think so, and I think you know, maybe one of the closing things that I wanna say is that to one of the best acknowledgments I think, that we as coaches attempting to be systems inspired work is to acknowledge our clients and remind them of, we talked about it before as well, the law of non-vocality, acknowledge our clients, if you and I can sit and you can navigate this challenge that you are bringing to the coaching, just the fact that we are busy doing that in terms of the law of non-vocality means that somewhere else on a planet something else has already shifted as well. Because there is a quantum interdependence that we share with one another, and one thing changes in one place it’s different somewhere else as well, so thank you for doing the work that you do as a client.
KC – Mm, it’s interesting, the wider ripple effect. The systems with other people but also the systems that include nature and planets, the other planets, gosh it keeps going, doesn’t it?
MF – Absolutely, yeah. I was in, again it’s one of those examples of how being in conversations with other, including with you, informs and grows us as well because I came to a realization during a conversation with a colleague that, she helped frame it because we were talking about you know this interdependence, and interdependence is actually a quantum phenomenon that we cannot explain with dualistic thinking.
KC – What do you mean by dualistic thinking?
MF – Black and white. It’s either this or that. It’s all of it.
KC – That’s so true. Yeah, because you couldn’t hold both at the same, ah that’s so interesting. So no wonder it’s so hard for us to grapple with.
MF – I think so. I think so. And the whole thing of interdependence, all of us are always interdependent, we may not become aware of it until we bump into a challenge together, but interdependence is.
KC – Yeah. And I absolutely enjoyed the interdependency between us in this conversation.
MF – There you go, as always! It continues on beyond every conversation.
KC – I love it Marita, always enjoy the dance with you, take care and I’ll speak to you soon.
MF – Thank you, talk to you soon, bye.
[Music outro begins 41:00]
KC – I loved dancing with Marita around the topic of systems inspired coaching. We covered a lot of ground across the course of this conversation so as always, here are my key takeaways from this episode. A systems inspired approach can apply to all areas of life, so whilst this conversation was focused around systems inspired coaching, you can swap out the word coaching for many other roles you can play in your life, for example systems inspired parenting, systems inspired relationships and, of course, systems inspired leadership. A systems inspired coaching approach is as much about working with our own internal me system and being aware of the different preferences and judgements we may bring to a system. The more we’re aware of our own system, the more we can be systems inspired with the teams, partnerships and organizations we work with. Parallel process is where if something is evoked in me, it’s probably also going on in the system I’m working with, and if something’s going on in the system we’re working with there is likely something similar going on in our wider systems too. We’re constantly being impacted by systems, there’s an interdependence, no person is an island and so being a systems inspired coach also involves being aware of the many systems impacting you and impacting your clients. Before we go into a room with our clients or turn on our Zoom cameras, take a moment to pause and be aware of the systems you’re navigating today. This simple pause enables us to be more conscious and intentional with the systems we work with. Reflective practice is a hugely important component in the systems inspired coaching approach. It creates greater awareness about the system of me and the many selves that make up who we are so that we can step into relationship with our clients with new insight and better self management. It's ok to not be ok when meeting someone as a coach. Being systems inspired also means stepping away when we’re not the right coach for a certain client and trusting that there is another coach in our wider systems that will serve them better. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole.
[Music outro 44:13 – end]