Across the next two episodes, Katie talks with ORSC coach and legally trained consultant Jennifer Pernfuss and CRR Global co-founder Marita Fridjhon about conflict. Conflict is a signal that something is trying to happen and when the signal of conflict isn't addressed, matters can escalate to other, and often more destructive forms of conflict. Conflict falls on a spectrum, and if we can become aware of the early warning signals we can produce better, more well-considered, outcomes. However, if conflict takes root and is left unaddressed it can escalate and, in more serious cases, become harassment or bullying, or at least be experienced that way, which causes all kinds of damage. This damage can rise to the level of a crisis within the team or organization. In part 1 they discuss:
Jennifer Pernfuss is an ORSC coach and legally trained consultant, helping organizations effectively address and resolve workplace harassment complaints and transform conflict. She was one of the first legally trained consultants to conduct external investigations in Ontario. She left that work to study different ways of resolving employee complaints that encourage low-level resolution and regard for all the stakeholders in a dispute. In addition to a law degree, she has a degree in Psychology and is a trained mediator. As well as being a certified Organization and Relationship Systems Coach she is also a Trauma Informed Professional Coach. In addition, she has also had the pleasure of being trained by Brene Brown in the area of shame. All her education, training, personal and field experience has culminated in a unique and highly effective approach to addressing and resolving harassment and other forms of conflict in the workplace.
Marita Fridjhon is a co-founder and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Across the next two episodes, Katie talks with ORSC coach and legally trained consultant Jennifer Pernfuss and CRR Global co-founder Marita Fridjhon about conflict. Conflict is a signal that something is trying to happen and when the signal of conflict isn't addressed, matters can escalate to other, and often more destructive forms of conflict. Conflict falls on a spectrum, and if we can become aware of the early warning signals we can produce better, more well-considered, outcomes. However, if conflict takes root and is left unaddressed it can escalate and, in more serious cases, become harassment or bullying, or at least be experienced that way, which causes all kinds of damage. This damage can rise to the level of a crisis within the team or organization. In part 1 they discuss:
Jennifer Pernfuss is an ORSC coach and legally trained consultant, helping organizations effectively address and resolve workplace harassment complaints and transform conflict. She was one of the first legally trained consultants to conduct external investigations in Ontario. She left that work to study different ways of resolving employee complaints that encourage low-level resolution and regard for all the stakeholders in a dispute. In addition to a law degree, she has a degree in Psychology and is a trained mediator. As well as being a certified Organization and Relationship Systems Coach she is also a Trauma Informed Professional Coach. In addition, she has also had the pleasure of being trained by Brene Brown in the area of shame. All her education, training, personal and field experience has culminated in a unique and highly effective approach to addressing and resolving harassment and other forms of conflict in the workplace.
Marita Fridjhon is a co-founder and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
JP - Jennifer Pernfuss
MF - Marita Fridjhon
[Intro 00:00 – 00:06]
KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and across the next two episodes I’m talking with ORSC coach and legally trained consultant Jennifer Pernfuss and CRR Global co-founder Marita Fridjhon about conflict. Conflict is a signal that something’s trying to happen and when the signal of conflict isn’t addressed matters can escalate to other and often more destructive forms of conflict. Conflict falls on a spectrum, and if we can become aware of the early warning signals we can produce better, more well-considered, outcomes. However, if conflict takes root and is left unaddressed it can escalate and, in more serious cases, become harassment or bullying, or at least be experienced that way, which causes all kinds of damage. This damage can rise to the level of a crisis within the team or organization. In part one we discuss the meaning of conflict as a signal that something is trying to happen; becoming more attuned to conflict signals; understanding that conflict is a normal and inevitable part of life; and leaning into conflict and learning how to navigate it more skillfully. Jennifer Pernfuss helps organizations effectively address and resolve workplace harassment complaints and transform conflict. She was one of the first legally trained consultants to conduct external investigations in Ontario. She left that work to study different ways of resolving employee complaints that encourage low-level resolution and regard for all the stakeholders in a dispute. In addition to a law degree, she has a degree in Psychology and is a trained mediator, and as well as being an ORSC Coach, she’s also a Trauma Informed Professional Coach. In addition, she has also had the pleasure of being trained by Brene Brown in the area of shame. All her education, training, personal and field experience has culminated in a unique and highly effective approach to addressing and resolving harassment and other forms of conflict in the workplace. Marita Fridjhon is a co-founder of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. So without further ado I bring you Marita Fridjhon and Jennifer Pernfuss talking about conflict in part one, a signal that something needs to or wants to change.
KC – Jennifer, Marita, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast. Well I’m welcoming you both back to the Relationship Matters podcast and I’m delighted to have you both on the show at the same time.
JP – Thank you Katie, this is wonderful to be with you and Marita.
MF – Thank you Katie and Jennifer, good to be with you again. Jennifer and I have navigated some long and challenging roads as we work in places and spaces where conflict has become not so easy to navigate.
KC – And that’s very much the theme of these two episodes we’ll be recording together, and we wanted to dance around the idea conflict is a signal that something’s trying to happen which can be quite a hard one to embrace. I think for a lot of people conflict’s something to push away and avoid at all costs so, I just wonder, where do we start as an entry point for this conversation for those people who might find it hard to even think about this as a concept?
MF – I’m going to jump in because something’s suddenly shown up for me. It’s that cool hand on fevered brow thing that I always think about is, before we jump into the conflict that is difficult to navigate or the people are resisting to, I just want to normalize that every single day, every single one of us navigate conflict successfully. There’s the kid that doesn’t want to pick up the stuff before they go to school. There’s the dog that can’t wait to go outside and then they do the thing in the house. There is the spouse… name it. Every day is filled with these small things that we might see as microaggressions but they are conflict signals that we navigate. So I just want to say conflict is not something that is alien to us and we so often collapse the fact that I might be conflict adverse with a fact that I don’t deal with conflict. I just want to normalize it, all of us, everyday handle conflict. It is. It’s a bumper sticker. Conflict is.
JP – Yeah, and I really appreciate your examples Marita and it raises the question for me what is conflict? And some of the examples that you gave I’m thinking that they’re issues that may be an annoyance or a disturbance but they still allow people to stay within their window of tolerance. That’s their able to navigate. And then there’s going to be those kinds of conflicts that are activating or triggering to us and set us outside that window of tolerance.
MF – But, I love that Jennifer because that’s true and I think that that’s, it’s actually an important opening conversation is that it’s almost like I would love to for everybody that’s listening to this podcast just begin to think about what are some of those conflicts that you can rehearse because you know that when somebody says x, y and z, you will be triggered. At best, and you know how to work with triggers because you just need to pause and step away from it for a bit, all you will be having a trauma response. So I think one of the ways that we, that’s easy to work with conflict and that we don’t use is the rehearsal. Every day when I get up there’s something I cannot rehearse because I don’t know it’s gonna happen, but I can think about the meeting’s that’s upcoming, the emails that I need to respond, I’m sitting with three of them in my inbox that I need to work with for at least 24 hours before I go there. It’s that piece that if we can begin to look at conflict with an access point of rehearsal so that I can know some of the places where I’m not gonna be skillful, I won’t be able to be skillful and what do I do with that?
JP – And Marita you talk a lot about the importance of reflection…
MF – Yes.
JP – And the pause and being with. So first turning inward and listening to our internal signals, like the body responses we have before the emotion, provide us with invaluable information about what’s happening for us.
MF – That’s great actually Jennifer, and you know I’m also, I’m also aware of have a look at what are the things that we do when we catch that, to begin to create the space or the pause for reflection. It’s one of the reasons why, one of the things I, I don’t love email but one of the things I love about email is that I can flag something. Because there’s something that I’m not going to delete, I cannot answer to it now, I can flag it. And the flag, guess what, it's red. So it’s just, you know, our role is actually designed around, in all sorts of ways, navigating conflict but I think you’re absolutely right, yeah, that body response, that immediate reaction.
KC – I wonder though, because we’ve talked a lot about how quick our lives are in general. Do you feel there’s a need to slow down even more when we’re in conflict with something or someone?
JP – Absolutely. I know in my work as a Restoration Practitioner I am often talking about going slow to go fast. If we’re able to slow down and be with what is it actually holds the information of what we need in terms of where we need to go next.
MF – I love that Jennifer because I think also from my years as a mediator, and some of that we brought into design into alignment in our training, that place where we have people ventilate without interaction, so you ventilate and speak to somebody across from you, not to the person that you are angry with, that is a way of pausing the person that’s not speaking while giving somebody a chance to speak, and literally there are times where you have to time it, literally got one minute, and then the next person. So I think that’s a built-in pause that also allows for the space to express without judgement and not holding these as opinions because I think that’s part of what we see in our world today where something that I don’t agree with, I can begin to frame as my truth and if you could just think about all the accusations and the way in which people stand in their own place and say I am right, there’s no dialogue and without that is when we get to those bigger places that is war and some of the work Judgment that you do actually around abuse and other pieces where the law now is involved and by that time, and we’ll talk more about that I think more in our next podcast, but by the time that happens it’s gone too far. And so, I think one of the things Jennifer and I talked about and I’m still sitting with that focus is how do we create more awareness for navigating conflict without creating or having microaggressions? Because it’s the microaggressions that grows to a place where it then becomes law, or an action that needs to be tracked by the law.
JP – There’s brilliance in that alignment work and not, and when you’re not looking at the other person and they’re witnessing it it’s not as confronting, and I don’t know this scientifically but intuitively I sense that it doesn’t then, it isn’t as activating. It’s that activating the nervous system to the same extent, similarly in the ORSC work with designing the team alliance, getting really intentional about how we’re gonna have the conversation creates those rules of engagement and levels of safety that I imagine helps people stay in their window of tolerance. That without those guard rails there’s more opportunity for disconnection.
MF – I think the other piece that you’re talking about is when that packet that contains the conflict arrives at our doorstep because it will, I think there’s again, for everybody and as we sit in this conversation as well, the reflection of what is my first response when that happens? Now that depends on what’s in that package and there are certain packages that I can’t yet open. I need to know which those are and I need to know what are the ways in which I can work with that. Do I go and talk to my coach about it? Do I go and talk to a trusted friend? Do I take that into supervision? Where do I go with it is when we think we can handle everything that I think we sometimes trip and fall and again, it’s that place of reflection or rehearsal that gives us the opportunity to consciously design without feeling like you’re thrown under the bus.
KC – One thing I’m becoming curious about is the language of signal. Conflict is a signal that something’s trying to happen. And I realize, at least for me, my default is conflict is a problem that needs to be fixed, or conflict is a challenge that I need to solve and it goes very much into that thinking space, I’ll think my way through this, but a few times you’ve mentioned intuition and the body and feeling into what’s going on there. And I wonder sort of how maybe our thinking brains get in the way of really sitting with the signal.
MF – Jennifer, I’m looking at you!
JP – So let’s use an example. So if I think about an employee that’s complaining that his or her manager is abusive or is, there’s a power over the situation, they feel mistreated. Often in that kind of scenario there is a rank issue, an experience of mistreatment, they’re in an activated state and many times or not conscious of that. And so their immediate reaction is one where we’re all wired, we’re all wired for this, flight, fight, freeze or collapse. Marita what I think you’re speaking too is once we’ve come down off of that and I understand it takes about 17-24 minutes to come back down to our pre-frontal lobes, that’s, we can then reflect on so where do we go from here? So as you can see Katie, from the outside of the interactions there’s so much information being provided around what needs to happen. So in that instance as a coach when we can, we’re sitting outside the system so it’s much easier, obviously, to get curious about what’s wanting to change, in that instance the employee might say I want the harassment to stop or the mistreatment to stop, and the reframe is what’s needing to emerge from that relationship are higher degrees of respect and awareness around impact. And it might be elevating the voice of the employee. So those are all aspects of a relationship that if they can be in hand are gonna create more trust and more positivity.
MF – I like what you’re saying Jennifer and when you asked the question Katie I really, it immediately pointed me in that direction of that principle of RSI that systems are in a constant state of emergence. And it’s when change emerges that there’s this agreement because change kicks us against our own edge of I don’t want that, what I have right now is good enough. But if we unfold that principle a little bit, that it’s trying, it’s a signal that’s trying to change, something’s trying to emerge, how do I create from it instead of react to it? Now some of them, and if we weren’t on a public podcast I can give you at least 12 of those, I cannot, I cannot not react to it. That means I need to go a trusted friend, to my spouse or to my coach or whoever and go I need you to just listen. What I’m about to say is not the truth but I need to scream and yell it out. And if you want to shut me up and tell me to beat pillows I will do that. You need to have a space like that to get rid of all that first. You can’t continue to block it and dampen down, but how do we get rid of it in a skillful way that can lead to creating from this? Social media tends to not do that. What’s happening in journalism tends to not do it. What’s happening in reporting around political situations tends to not do it and that’s what we’re up against, so there’s more and more a challenge for us in terms of how do we walk the talk of being systems inspired changemakers in our own life and with the people around us because that’s about what we can do, what is mine to do? And it’s not an easy one but if I can set the example and own that, I’m in this conversation with you now, I might tell you, I know forgive me but I have postponed this conversation for the last two weeks because I’ve just not, I’ve let you know that I can’t talk just yet. My apologies for the delay, now I’m in a better space to discuss it. That’s an example, that’s a modelling of something that hopefully makes a difference. If it’s authentic. It's not something that you’re trying to manipulate somebody with, but you have to do your own work and sometimes there’s an elephant that’s trying to fall down – get out of the way. If it’s the elephant that’s trying to get up you can help it, but there are some that, and again, from that systemic perspective, the system has its own way of navigating conflict as well. It’s trying to use us to help it move, some of them we can’t.
JP – You know Marita as you’re describing that what’s coming up for me is when we’re getting activated, what can come up for me is historical injury and so I’m bringing that historical injury and this idea then bringing my issue to the person with whom I’m in conflict and sharing about what happened in the present. I’m just so aware of the vulnerability associated with that because of the past in me.
MF – I like that you said that Jennifer because, I just noticed that in some, at least in what I’ve been talking about, I associate, all my examples were about conflict that created anger. But with some of what you’re talking about conflict can also awaken deep grief, so it’s not always conflict that is ugly but it’s conflict that is traumatic and meets grief, and that takes me back to your original question also Katie, you talked about signals. Signals is the work that and the theory that we bring across from Arnold Mindell and his process with theories where he talks about signals of things that are teaching us to what’s trying to change, what’s trying to happen, trying to emerge. And when we’re talking about that injury, that conflict that you just mentioned Jennifer, that’s when we are talking about time spurt, again, Arnie Mindell. Because now I’m sitting not only with somebody across from me who today is injured by what is happening but who also has millions of people sitting, standing behind them over the last 400 years and they now, the person across from me is now the voice from that. That’s a very different piece of work from doing mediation or anything else with one individual. So know when we are in the presence of a time spurt, that sometimes they need to burn their wood in order to express what happened before them and to restore. It’s complex.
KC – I think what I’m hearing in this conversation as well is that the sort of signals are neutral, and we think about signals or data points...
MF – That’s great.
KC. -… and yet, for most of us conflict sits in the body and it creates a certain reaction, like we don’t like conflict. So, you know, how do we hold that neutrality as system’s coaches because it’s not easy, it’s not our default mode I think as human beings in general to think about conflict and not spin it into a negative story.
JP – If I can lean into something that Marita and Faith have offered up in the training that I lean into and I value so much is this idea that systems are all longing to be in right relationship. That’s the homeostasis it’s seeking. And correct me if I don’t have that right Marita, that’s my understanding of what has been said in the work, and so as a systems coach and I’m sitting outside the system I’m with that, I’m standing in that perspective and I don’t, I wanna stay out of its way in terms of how it needs to get back into right relationship. And if we hold that the seed to the resolution lives inside the system, through the work, and if we create enough separation and a log jam if you will, it will emerge. It’s like it has its own intelligence, there’s a magic to it in a way. It does emerge.
MF – I love what you’ve just said Jennifer because I think that’s at the, that’s at the root of systems inspired change and systems inspired leadership and systems inspired coaching and systems inspired parenting. Where there are times where the leader or the coach does not have the answer. And how do we as leaders and coaches pause and just help create the environment where the answers could come from the voices within the system. And we do need skills and tools for that but there is something about that, that the answer really does lie within the system itself, that web of connection and that’s why we need to be able to get the outlier voices as well. And that slows us down and that’s what is hard for us as coaches and leaders sometimes, we cannot stay in the meeting and the revealing. We wanna go faster but that’s not gonna get us anywhere.
JP – And thankless loads to go fast.
KC – I’m really curious about what was said about right relationship and systems want to find right relationship. And I’ve been pondering lately on the idea of who’s doing the asking because quite often it’s I want to find right relationship, but that’s still coming from that space of I and not so much a so what does right relationship look like for us. And I just wonder if that lands for any of the work you both do in the realm of conflict and finding right relationship from a systemic space as opposed to still that individual landscape or lens.
JP – I think that we all have a deep need for a sense of belonging, I just finished reading Susan King’s Bittersweet book, it’s amazing, and she talks about the human condition longs for communion, ultimately about communion. And when I think about right relationship I think about communion and the sense of belonging, that’s what came up for me as you were asking that question Katie, what about for you Marita?
MF – You know I’m thinking about some recent examples, and again, this is my mission at the moment is to encourage people more and more to do this work that we as privileged claim we know. Do more of it on the street. Stop just holding it for your paid, for coaching or consulting, whatever it is. Do it on the street. And do it at home. So I’m just thinking, recently with some family members are visiting and other people coming through town that they come and either stay with us or have, and in some of those situations there were people who are in a very different place from Faith and myself politically, climate wise, you name it. Not radical, sometimes gets radical when you argue about it, that’s why it becomes radical. And one of the things both Faith and I practice and that we’ve been playing with in these situations and saying to people, we thought about how to be together and we realized that there’s some conversations which may not be easy, so we wanna stay open. So it’s some set up, but then when those difficult conversations come to literally take more or less the seat that we do in alignment work is to, in the next sentence, and you notice that I’m looking away at the moment because I do that often because visually I become very connected to the person in front of me and then I lose my neutral something, but them do something like that and ask what might a good relationship between be like when we have this conversation? You know, what would be necessary for us, what are the rules, what are the things we can talk about? What are the things we can’t talk about? It’s a familial version of a DTA, a design team alliance, without using strange words but it literally is. And I remember there was one conversation that had to do with this whole gender issue pieces, when I said I don’t know how to answer that question because it sounds like you already have an answer in it, so tell me about that answer in your question because I can maybe relate to that. The persons said do you know, that’s interesting, I never thought of that. So it's, and again, relationship is the currency and there is the place where I need to be able to say I’m out of skill and right relationship, whatever, I’m gonna make us coffee or I’m gonna take the dog, or whatever it is. But again, and if you just think of parallel process, if we can begin to do this with our family, in the supermarket, wherever it is, from that parallel process perspective, it already is making a difference somewhere else as well. Even with somebody who we’ll never see again. So for me it’s how do we simplify this stuff and put it in the street, put it in the office, and I think that’s one of the things Jennifer that you and I are so aligned on is what are the practices, what are the trainings, what are the pieces that we could put in place in the business cooperate environment and non-profit because that’s often one of the, it’s a very, can be a very controversial environment. What is it that we can put in place so that this conversation can happen at the office and on Zoom on a more regular basis, between everybody. Not just the privileged three that sit on a call at the moment.
JP – Yeah. And if I can build on that Marita and drill it down even further, Karen Treisman, she’s a brilliant clinical psychologist and author in England and she talks about micro-moments. And every micro-moment either opens a door or it closes a door and I believe in playing with that, it’s like how are we being in the world In every interaction she says a reaction is a potential for intervention, it’s how she characterizes it. Another lens is every interaction is a potential for triggering trauma or activating trauma and there’s something about bringing one’s intention to that and then being intentional or in choice about the moment that is a really interesting experiment that I’m taking on this week.
KC – I love that.
MF – Me too, and can you see how so much of what we talked about before is that, whether you call it rehearsal, whether you call it reflection, but it is that place where I need to first come into right relationship with myself, that container that is me, my third entity within all the different voices before I can truly then meet with somebody that I have a sense or in that moment that something like this is happening, how can I then pause and look for that moment or possibility of whether you call it intervention or truly meeting where that person is – I think that’s huge. That’s huge.
KC – It just comes back to why maybe we need to slow down so much when we’re in these moments of tensional conflict. I can see how it’s so easy to come from well this is what right relationship looks like for me so we should have this right relationship in this moment. And actually it’s closing down any kind of curiosity and yeah, I just wonder what might be possible if we can sort of hold that relationship space, what does the relationship need in this moment as opposed to what I need which I think is so often where we come from in conflict.
MF – Yeah.
KC – My way or the highway.
MF – I think you’re right and I think there is a thing about sometimes I wonder whether the fact that we are so differently visually connected to the world that we were before, I wonder whether that’s also not part of the challenge for us, because if you think about the research in terms of how much interpretation of what is being said does not live in the words, it lives in the signals and expressions that people see around them. So there are something there that I think that sometimes I wonder, and that’s why we look away from people when we’re in a fight with them or in an alignment piece with them, because the looking at you is creating a reactivity in me. The going slower is that place where, there’s neuroscience research on that that talks about when you are sitting in a strategic meeting it tends to rev up and go faster and faster because we’ve gotta go fast and there’s a decision that needs to be made and we need to get it out today, and as that happens the part of the brain that’s creative and leverages relationship shuts down and that’s when it begins to blow up, and so it’s one of the reasons why we do so much experiential work, because it takes me out of thinking mind, thinking and strategic mind and if I go to that creative place and to that relationship space, different creative thoughts, ideas and things come into play that we can create from. So I think that going fast actually makes us go slower and going slower gives us more of that creative access point.
KC – One thing I became aware of, I was on a retreat last week, I was telling you both offline, and there was a practice of keeping coming back to the self, so just closing your eyes and taking a couple of breaths and it wasn’t long and I realize how I feel I need to integrate more of that into my day because it can be very easy in this relationship work, particularly in this work but perhaps in all kinds of work, to focus on the other and to put so much out there that actually you lose sight of what’s going on in here, and then maybe something brews up or bubbles up and you don’t even realize it and you don’t catch it before perhaps it's too late.
MF – That reminds me of, Katie, and I think we’ve talked about this in another podcast as well, a philosophy professor of mine during one of my training academic journeys, had this practice where he would have his assistant or somebody set a clock, an alarm clock, at different intervals during his lectures. And what he would ask for is that as some cadence of intervals because before you could set things so automatically Katie, at some intervals throughout his sessions that alarm would go off and his request was when that happens pause, three deep breaths, continue.
KC – Wow.
MF – So that would happen throughout his lecture, when that alarm went off he would stop mid-sentence in the middle of a word, look down, three breaths, come back. Imagine. If we do that, a version of that, through our coaching. Ask our clients, ask the person that I am in conflict with. Say I’m struggling at the moment, can we take a couple of breaths, can I walk around for a couple of minutes and come back? You do the same thing. Anything that helps us pause, to breath and center, changes everything.
JP – During the pandemic when I was doing all this online, one of the things that I would do when people enter the room is say before we even get started please just share one work for how you’re feeling in this moment, just to get us in the room, I’m using air quotes right now. And it was fascinating, everybody did and it was fascinating, the feedback, how grateful they were to be able to not only just to notice but also to share and that created a connection during the work. And it took very little time.
MF – That’s great, and I think again, some of the activities that comes from and I think through our work as well is to have somebody, and it’s one of my favorite things to do at the beginning of a session, people to look around at the desk or whatever and pick an object, something that gets their attention, just pick it up. Don’t know why but pick it up. Yeah, there you go. And then ask them to share, to have, take the object in their hands or if it’s a screen touch it or whatever, what was it that drew you to that piece and how is that piece that you’re holding in your hand or whatever, what is its importance? Anything like that brings them centering and if you then just ask the simple question, what and how might that be useful for us to have you bring to our next session? But again, it takes us out of the thinking mind to a creative place that I have no idea why I’ve picked up a sticky note pad, ok, let me sit with it. Whatever it is. So, I love what you’re saying there, it really is easy access points for reflection, creative mind.
KC – Yeah that’s it, it’s not just for regulating and I think it’s so often gets the focus, that when we connect with ourselves we can regulate, but actually it’s also that reflection point as well that then gives us more choice.
MF – New information. And I notice that our topic remains conflict and not all conflicts are equal, but as we begin to practice these things that we are, you know, sort of playing around with, it provides us better access points, not only to the conflict that then becomes easier but better access and different access points to conflict that may be difficult and in the end it really is about how do, how much do I know about the system and the container that is me? What do I need to be present with there? And then gets curious about that across from me and we both do it. Any of these practices begin to create a very different awareness and I think it, it’s simple enough but also challenging enough to make it worthwhile.
JP – I think that it takes immense courage if we slow down and we create space to be with, we have to be able to be with. And I think it’s true for me in some ways and true for other people that that can be very confronting and they’ll have lots of defenses, saboteurs ready to keep the pace going really quickly so as not to have to be with some of the truths.
MF – I think that’s so important, Jenifer, and again it’s that self-knowledge because if we just think about each of our profiles, I’m a danger type, I can be intimidating, people see things in me that actually is, I don’t know how to unsee but I’m the one with the wuss heart. I mean I get really easily injured and go oh, I didn’t do… but it’s that piece, is how do I then mitigate that and meet people in vulnerability? Be authentic even in doing that. Because again, when I think of the three of us in this call here, Katie I think if I wanna come back next lifetimes as one of the two of you I might take you because you are inviting, there’s, both Jennifer and I can be a little bit strong and people look at it and say whatever, but there’s an invitation in you, there’s a beauty in you that draws in. And we need to know these things. We need to know how to work with them because that’s part of our conflict style whether we like it or not.
KC – Oh that’s so funny, I’m so often channeling my inner Jennifer and Marita so it also talks to the fact that we always want what we don’t have, don’t we!
MF – I know! The other person that I often invoke as well is Arnie Mindell because Arnie always comes from, you know when something happens he comes from a place where it looks and sounds as if he has no idea how to work with it. And he’ll just go, I don’t know, Amy what do you think? And he’ll just, that sets up the entire room, whether is 50 or 300, to open up. And he’s not faking it because he is looking for that answer across and around him. But then he will comment, so I’ll often go what would Arnie do in this situation? Like that.
KC – That’s beautiful. And it really talks to the fact that we do have that range and maybe…
MF – Yes we do!
KC - … in conflict, in all the different conflicts that show up in our lives, maybe each one stretches us a little bit further, or maybe we have to consciously chose to stretch into a different part of who we are.
MF – Katie it also makes me think of that podcast that we did on family is the final exam or something like that, because we begin to look at who our friends are and who our spouses and partners are, very often they are the people who pull out in you those things that you need to work on. I fell in love with somebody else but then, you know, overtime it becomes Marita, you really need to work on that piece. Oh, go away. So it’s like that.
KC – It’s like the reps at the gym isn’t it, those part of self that, yeah…
MF – I know, I know. Yeah, yeah.
KC – Well thank you both for this gorgeous conversation, I’m very excited to build on this in a couple of days time in part two. Be well both of you and thank you for all that you brought today.
JP – It’s been a joy, thank you both very much.
[Music outro begins 38:18]
KC – Thanks to Marita and Jennifer for that hugely informative discussion. Here are my key takeaways. What is conflict? There are some forms of conflict that are annoying or frustrating but don’t take people outside of their window of tolerance, and then there are other forms of conflict that are triggering or activating that can take us outside our window of tolerance. The importance of reflection, the pause and being with during conflict, turning inward and listening to the body’s response can provide invaluable information about what’s happening during the conflict. Systems are all longing to be in right relationship, that’s the homeostasis that they’re seeking, so as systems workers sitting outside of the system we stand in that perspective and we want to stay out of its way in the terms of how it gets back to right relationship. And if we hold that this seed to the resolution lives within the system, through the work it will emerge. In part two we build on this conversation to explore escalated conflict and how to navigate the complexities of organizational crisis. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole.
[Music outro 40:34 – end]