Ep. 24 The Team Coach Approach Part 2: Developing Relationships

This is episode 2 in a 3-part series on team coaching with team coach and CRR Global faculty member Martin Klaver. To listen to part 1, click here. In episode 2, Katie and Martin discuss how to develop conscious and intentional relationships with clients. Across the conversation, they discuss:

• Sharing team coaching, not as a product but as a process
• Meeting clients where they are, with their language.
• Understanding that as a team coach, you are a part of the process. 
• Co-coaching as an opportunity for modelling teamwork.

Martin Klaver is an experienced team coach and faculty member at CRR Global. He is enthusiastic about group dynamics and believes guiding systems in these dynamics and making patterns and potential aware is beautiful and rewarding work. Martin designs and supervises many Management Development processes where personal development (IQ and EQ), relationships with others (SQ) and relationships with systems (RSI) are fundamental. Fun, experimental and essence are themes that you can recognize in his methods.

Martin has a master’s degree in Business Administration and extensive work experience in HR and organizational development at various organizations. Based in the Netherlands, Martin facilitates with his team a diversity of organizations and leaders in their development. The purpose of his company is to bring more balance in the world. They focus to create an atmosphere of possibility in which the system can evolve into what is needed.


For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman 

MK – Martin Klaver 

[Intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and this is part two of a three part series on the team coach approach with team coach and CRR faculty member Martin Klaver. If you haven’t listened to part one already, we’d highly recommend checking out part one: defining success, before checking out part two: developing relationships. In this episode we discuss how to develop conscious and intentional relationships with clients. Across the conversation we cover sharing team coaching not as a product but as a process; meeting clients where they are with their language; understanding that as a team coach you are a part of the process; and co-coaching as an opportunity for modelling teamwork. So without further ado I bring you Martin Klaver talking about the team coach approach part two: developing relationships. 

KC – Martin, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. 

MK – Thank you and thank you for having me again. Great to be here. 

KC – Yes and I’m looking forward to building on our conversation around the team coach approach. And today we’re looking at building the relationship with a client and I wonder fi we can start more broadly with this idea of the team coach approach because I’m imagining that there’s not necessarily a blueprint that people are going to get from this conversation, well these three conversations, that they can then just apply to their work and their business. 

MK – No, I think not. I would love for the people that find like ooh, they could pick out some things that feels like ooh, that’s helping me in order to get what I want, you know? And be successful, as we talked about in the first talk, is like what fits my success? What fits my company? What fits me? That would be great if they can get something out of it. 

KC – I love that, so there’s this approach and then it shows up differently for you in your life and what success means and looks like. So in terms of building a relationship with a client, how do you go about doing this with the spirit of the sort of team coach approach that we’re talking too? 

MK – Yeah. There is a difference between the training and the team coaching. So team coaching for me is not really a product. It is more a process that you are selling or you want to sell, but for the process to be successful you need both parts. The client then the facilitator. So for me, it’s very important that for a client that there is an equal relationship, we need each other to be successful. It’s not something I sell, they can use, ok, bye bye and I’m off. So you’re really stepping into a process together and I think that’s really good to notice and to be really aware of. So it also means is that you really have to put yourself forward too, in order to, you know, what are you going to bring, what is important for you to really step into that relationship? So that you can be the best part of, the best version of yourself, so to speak. 

KC – That feels a little edgy and quite exciting as I hear you say that because I think quite often there’s an urge to maybe mold yourself into what the client wants, and what you’re saying is actually show up as you are and bring a part of that relationship because you are half of that dynamic, and it’s not just a one way street. 

MK – No but I love it, if people have done the intermediate courses of ORSC they remember geography maybe, and there was that aspects of self and they come together and what we’re saying there is keep your essence energy and be open for influence. And I think that’s also what, in a relationship with my clients I want to bring. So I really want to keep my essence energy, I want to really bring what’s important for me so I don’t lose myself in the process of facilitation or whatever, and still be open for influence because yes, what you’re saying is also true. You know, you also want to align with your clients, not everything is fixed, you can adjust to the client but surely there will be boundaries, whether there is an aspect or knowledge that you can bring, or skill that you an bring, but also like moneywise could also be the battle, be very aware of your boundaries there, that would be helpful. 

KC – That feels much more in the space of interdependence when you say about being open to influence… 

MK – Mmm. 

KC – I think sometimes that urge to please can overtake then our essence energy being important, and we just then maybe default to what the client wants. And why do you feel that’s a disservice to the relationship, well I’m assuming you feel that that’s a disservice to this work that we do? 

MK – Yeah. Well I think that a relationship is at its best when people know what they want, focus on self first, but then come together and see what creating in the third entity. And that’s the same thing with the client relationship, but that’s a little bit of a different approach normally than we do, also I’m used to, when I’m selling the trainings then it’s more a product. It’s less me and it’s more product that you do and with this relationship it’s a little bit more me, it’s a little bit more Martin I bring into that relationship, and from my experience it’s very important to bring that part to be successful, because we also used ourselves as a person in the facilitation, you know, reading the emotional field, it’s, we know whatever lives in us as the facilitator probably also lives in the system. You know, you can read back and say oh, when you start off the relationship already at the start, bringing yourselves and design the relationship together with the client with those parts, it’s most likely that you can bring yourself more into the facilitation. So be in service more to the client than the process that is needed. 

KC – So you bring more parts of who you are as opposed to the part that you think that will serve them, you’re actually just, you’re brining more of your system to the work. 

MK – Yeah. 

KC – Yeah. In terms of, because you mentioned the difference between when it’s training you’re selling more of a product, when it’s coaching you’re selling this process and then more of you shows up – is that how you go about explaining ORSC? Because this can be quite complicated when we’re meeting the client for the first time and they see some of the letters after our names and they ask what’s this ORSCC thing, where do you go from there? 

MK – It’s a question that pops up a lot in the classroom with participants, this one. Because ORSC has a lot of different languages to do, so normally I wouldn’t use the words ORSC or try to use less words from ORSC as possible, I really try to focus on the clients and where they are in their process. So I am here, what do you need, what do you want? And I love to start off there if it’s possible, sometimes you have a client who first wants to hear you and how you work. I find myself always a little bit more difficult because then I’m always hoping that I will say something that lands with the client and they understand it, so it’s constantly checking ok, how does this look and how do they understand it and get a sense of it, how it works and enough to use some examples of my work, some recent examples of what I did and how I work and there are some words that I use, for example we also, you can get it from like when you sign into ORSC and you see what ORSC is all about, you can use a lot of words that are described there, it’s like it’s very experimental, so I use that word a lot. It’s not about a lot of theory and understanding and then hopefully it lands in a team, no, it’s more like doing stuff and trying out and seeing what works and what doesn’t work. It’s something like that, yeah. 

KC – Because it is quite a different approach, even if we’ve got sort of other team coaching approaches under our belt, the ORSC approach is different so how you get across some of that uniqueness in terms of the offering that you bring? 

MK – Yeah. In the first podcast I said we don’t do a lot of marketing, it’s a lot of hearing from someone else the work that we do and that is really helpful in this part because they have heard from an experience or someone maybe they trust, they hear something and they bring that into the conversation with me. So that is more easy, you know, because they come with a good experience they heard about and then we have the conversation. So, that is always really helpful, that is also why I love that way of working, and when it’s, when you don’t have that experience I try to ask what, have you had experience with coaching or facilitation or training or whatever word that lands with them, I sometimes don’t even use the word coaching or whatever, just gonna see if I can help you out with something, or, you know what, contribute something, something like that. Words are very, it’s, and you don’t get it right most of the times. When I use it, when I say something I really try to look at the non-verbal reaction of the clients, whether they can understand it yes or no because sometimes when you use words, ah ok, this is not right for this client, it’s too fussy, it’s too approachy, they don’t understand what we’re gonna do, so I try to change my language. 

KC – That’s so interesting, I’ve thought before about not using so much of the ORSC jargon as we sometimes say, distancing myself from the title of coach, that feels a little alien and yet I can see how that could be so helpful with certain clients. You know, why do we necessarily have to call it coaching, because it could be called something quite different in a different system! 

MK – Yeah. 

KC – And if we meet them where we’re at it might be called guide or it might be called being at service. 

MK – Yeah, or even training, you know, I feel ok, in my perspective this is not training but they call it training, ok, whatever works for you. As long as we do have a clearance about how we’re going to approach this and that comes up in the DLA with the team, so that’s also important. 

KC – I wanna loop back to something you said early on in this conversation around your co-creating something together. So, talk to me more about how you start to lean into that process of co-creation with the client. 

MK – I try to be very explicit about that with the client. So, I try to be very explicit that we are not here as consultant or someone who says how you should do it and you try it out and we see if it works and you change something. So, the approach we have is really a fundamental belief that all the answers are living inside the team. What we’re going to do is we try to get them out of there, in a way, you know, sometimes it takes a bit of time, sometimes you quite fast field that you have it, yes or no, so that is the first one, another one is it takes time to really change behavior in the team. So, make sure you spend some time, you know, it takes six to nine months for it. I don’t know how many sessions you will have with me, for the change, for the focus on this team process, six to nine months to a year, take some time for it, don’t expect it with one session that all the changes are going to happen that you’re wishing for. So, yeah, stuff like that I think. But also it’s like we are the experts in the facilitation part, you know what should happen, the contents lands with you and therefore we need to have a relationship in order to make that work together. And maybe if they’re open, or maybe always if we’re going to start off, it’s like ok, what is important for you? And maybe that’s already a part, sometimes in the centre part, we also go a little bit into that because you have like, most of the time we speak with the director or a manager or someone who has the budget, so we can go into that a little bit in parts so they understand what they know, they get like an expectation, they know what to expect but we say also like this is also a conversation we’re going to do with the team, whether that person is in the team yes or no, and we do it again because we see, because this is an approach also with my company, really, I love it from ORSC that is the system is the client, I love that one, we always work from there. So you do it again sometime, so you have two DTAs or DLAs in that. 

KC – I love this approach because I think sometimes we’re being so at service to our client or clients that we can lose some of ourselves, and in this sort of co-creation there’s a real authority around, you know, we come with these processes, we’re the facilitators of those processes, and you know your stuff in terms of the work you’re doing, the challenges they bring up. And there’s sort of authority on both sides around the value that you bring. And if we’re not clear about that upfront I can see how maybe they’d be looking to you as the coach for answers and then you’re more in at the consulting role or vice versa, so how important upfront to create that, I guess, container from within which the work can happen and then that co-creation can flourish. 

MK – Yes, and also this is coming from experience, so it also comes from a lot of experience of not doing this in the right way or, you know, just stepping over it a little bit, it’s like ok, because you want to have that client for example, and then afterwards, oh. And that conversation, when you’re in the coaching or whatever is so much more difficult than when you can have it at the start. But that comes from experience I must say. From a lot of failures! 

KC – We all love a good fail story. I’m curious about a time, perhaps, where you stepped over it or you didn’t spend enough time at the DTA, the DLA, and something showed up where you realized we can’t hold that in this container. 

MK – Well, for example is that, yeah I think what comes up for me was this example that a manager had different expectations and they thought we were a consultant and we were really going to step in and we were going to get whatever, in this case, she was saying or she wanted. You know, we had a conversation and she shared with us what, from her point of view, what the situation was, what the issue was, ok, and from our perspective we said ok, thank you, this is your perspective and maybe we’re also curious about the perspective in the teams. We didn’t really get into it and we overstepped it a little bit. And then after, I think three sessions, we really thought like ok, something really is going wrong here. You know, you can feel it in the emotional field. We had a conversation and then, then a manager also shared with us a different expectation, I told you what the issue was but you don’t focus on it, you don’t go there. We’re like mmm, yes, but is it also what the team thinks what the issue is? Because she really felt like I’m saying what the issue is and you need to fix it. That is what we learned and then we really felt like ok, now we’re in a squeeze, this is not the way we want to work. 

KC – Yeah. It makes me think that taking that time upfront really creates a container for the work to happen in in terms of the team and that psychological safety, but it also gives us a sense of authority as we mentioned, but also freedom then to do the work that we can do in a sort of flexible way, because once we’ve sort of set our expectations we’ve got those boundaries in which then we can do the work, but until we’ve set those expectations I guess we’re all sort of working out what is, what isn’t going on. 

MK – Yeah and it’s true, and also what comes up with me is that we all have our insecurities that also pops up. Even an entrepreneur in France, the insecurities have far more impact on the work that we are doing, but what if we could bring in that insecurities in the conversation. 

KC – Ooh. Say more! 

MK – Yeah! You know? So that is important. So one thing we find, I find important when I work with client is also that they can see me, they can see Martin and not only the role of facilitator. You know? If they, if I feel that they are not able to see me or Martin has no room in it, hmm, then it’s really difficult for me to really be a good facilitator. So, I bring that in in the start, you know, in the conversation. It’s also like yeah, it’s not only me as a facilitator but also as a person, Martin, that brings it in, so I’ve also some needs for example. You know I can bring it in and have a conversation about it, and sometimes you feel like ok, there’s really no space in this conversation for me, hmm. And then you have the decision to make, do I want to proceed, yes or no. You know? And that’s a difficult decision. 

KC – That is. 

MK – But I know now from my experiences that this is really important for me that needs to bring that in. 

KC – Because going back to what you said in our previous conversation around what success is for you, that wouldn’t align with your version of success. 

MK – Exactly. Exactly. 

KC – Mm. That’s really interesting. In terms of being at service for that system as well, if you’re not able to bring in your whole self, are you living up to that as well? Probably not. But it’s hard to be discerning around that in the moment, you wanna get a client and maybe it’s a big client. I think the urge to compromise one’s self would be quite strong, particularly if it’s a new business. 

ML – Yes, of course it would. I think also that’s ok. And I also want, just to acknowledge that you feel that, that’s information for yourself, you know, what’s important for you. And the way that we work with it in our company is not only, we always facilitate with two persons, that’s also what I got from doing ORSC, there were two facilitators at the front of the room and after my fundamentals I thought ooh that’s great, I want also with the team work I also want to work with someone else. That really helped for me, for my insecurities and sometimes I feel difficult to name what I need, but the person that I’m working with, my co-leader, they maybe, he or she can easily bring it out into the conversation. And that feels very good I must say, because I feel like I need to be looked at as Martin, but at the same time, because I think also you pointed at it, it’s difficult because it’s important for me. So with a duo it’s so much more easier because the other person can say it, for example. 

KC – There’s something quite powerful, as well, about that modelling of team work that then the system, the team you’re working with gets to see as well. 

MK – Exactly. And that is, a lot of in the conversations we’re having the clients are saying this. That mm, oh great, what I also feel is like you’re modelling what it’s about or how it should look like, and we say yeah, we’re trying to but that is really helpful also. 

KC – That’s such a good point around, going back to what we said at the beginning about how it’s difficult to sell ORSC, I guess when you’re showing up in that way with your business partner or whoever you’re sort of co-leading, co-coaching with, that’s, in many ways, showing them what the work is. 

M – Yeah, that’s it! 

KC – Mm. 

MK – So brining that energy, that third entity, into the conversation, whether you do it explicit or not, it has an impact. 

KC – What’s the impact of brining the person, you as Martin as opposed to you as coach into the coach-client relationship? 

MK – I think, and it’s not always Martin it’s also the third entity and everything that goes with it, it’s, what you’re saying Katie, it’s modelling also for the team. It’s modelling the voice of the system. It’s modelling that we’re in a role and we’re more than the role and the role is more than us. It’s, it’s modelling everything that we are being taught in the ORSC series, and that has an impact. It just has an impact if you do it. You don’t have to explain it a lot of times, you know, they just feel the impact. So it creates safety, it creates openness, vulnerability, so it creates a lot of things that, from my point of view, is needed in a lot of teams and organizations. I work a lot with organizations so I see a lot of that, it’s more about the business, you know, what we do and the person is missing in the relationship. Emotions are missing in the relationship. You know. They’re not allowed to, we’re working here, we leave our emotions at home, it’s a very black and white thing, it’s sad. So that brings that, it brings more openness, it brings a great space to be whatever, who you are. 

KC – That’s got me really curious because I often talk about sort of task vs relationship orientated workplaces and how we need a balance, and yet, so often as coaches we might be meeting those industries with that sort of task orientated approach because that’s the language that they know. But then we’re not showing them a different way and you’re kind of modelling the work and showing them the work just by the way you show up with your co-lead or your team. 

MK – Yes. That’s also why, if there’s no space for the third entity or for me, Martin, as a person, there’s no space at all for that, hmm, ok, so how successful are we going to be if we go to work with them? Not so much, probably. Because, I think this is really important part of the work that we’re doing, it’s also in the ORSC way of style, the different roles that we have and we’re bringing, different perspectives. 

KC – It makes me think of something Sandra Cane said on another podcast about how the principles are a come from place. They’re an anchor for us to keep coming back too, and in many ways your sort of version of success that you design for yourself as a person, as a business, is your come back too place and you’re always looking through that lens when you’re meeting new clients, or at least trying too, to see whether this is aligned to your, I guess, business purpose, you could say. 

MK – Yeah I think you’re correct, yeah, that’s true. 

KC – Does that give you confidence to go out and do the work, when you sort of know you’ve got that anchor to come back to and to keep coming back to? 

MK – Yes, there’s something, I need sometimes some help to connect with the anchor, you know? 

KC – Ok. 

MK – In my experience sometimes the work also asks a lot from us as a person, if you bring Martin, if you bring fully yourself, that’s also exciting but sometimes really challenging, yeah. So sometimes I need also some help with anchoring ok, hmm, and to actually understand where all the feelings that are happening come from. It’s not as easy as I’m saying, I’m realizing now. 

KC – That’s the beauty of this work! I don’t think it ever gets boring because I don’t think we ever arrive. I had Marita in a conversation the other day talking about reflective practice and how she recently went through a systemic supervision herself. I like the fact you say I need help to come back to the anchors because it’s not like we’re always anchored to the harbor, something will always pull us away. 

MK – At least I’m not! 

KC – I think that’s being human. 

MK – Yes, and that is also nice, if you can bring that into the coaching too. Not everything has to be great and fantastic. 

KC – Yeah. 

MK – And yet we still have to do, you know, if everything goes wrong, ok, hmm ok, it’s something else, but you can be vulnerable also as a facilitator. 

KC – Thank you for being vulnerable in this conversation and for co-creating this podcast with me, and I look forward to continuing on with the conversation next week when we talk about integration and landing the learning for our clients 

MK – Yeah, I’m looking forward to it too. 

[Music outro begins 24:48] 

KC – Thank you to Martin for that interesting discussion around developing client relationships. Here are my key takeaways. When working with clients it’s important we meet them where they’re at. This includes using their language. Sometimes coaching jargon can get in the way of us really meeting the system where it’s at. When building relationships with clients, it’s important not to leave yourself out in service of the client. We serve the client by bringing more of who we are and revealing what we sense in the emotional field. You are being at service, not just as a team coach, but by showing up as a human being. When co-coaching we have an opportunity to model relationship systems intelligence. You don’t necessarily have to explain it, however teams will feel the impact and it creates safety, vulnerability, openness that allows for a different kind of conversation, one that values relationship and balances it with the task that needs to happen. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole. 

[Outro26:50 – end]