In the final episode of season 4, Katie talks with Kiki Kesseler about vulnerability in relationship. Across this conversation, we discuss:
Kiki Kessler is a CRR Global faculty member for both courses and the certification programme. Kiki believes that the value of working with teams, individuals, and relationships lies in the balance between revealing to the clients what is trying to happen and educating them on how to self-manage similar issues in the future for a more positive and productive relationship. Kiki focuses on people development and brings 20+ years of experience in cultural diversity, coaching, training, and team management across various industries, with corporate roles in Sales & Marketing, Business Development, and Training. She specializes in team development, conflict resolution, leadership skills, and systemic coaching. She is known to create a trusted atmosphere of positive energy that encourages the client to align, communicate, learn, and implement changed behavior. With clear education and the use of practical tools, Kiki inspires a can-do spirit among leaders. Her strength lies in combining coaching and training skills to enable growth. Originally from The Netherlands, she speaks Dutch, English, and German. Her cross-cultural experience was established through living in Austria, the United States, Germany and the UAE over the past 18 years, working within culturally diverse environments, organizations and teams. After a four-month adventurous drive from Dubai back to the Netherlands, Kiki and her family are now based close to Utrecht, The Netherlands.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
In the final episode of season 4, Katie talks with Kiki Kesseler about vulnerability in relationship. Across this conversation, we discuss:
Kiki Kessler is a CRR Global faculty member for both courses and the certification programme. Kiki believes that the value of working with teams, individuals, and relationships lies in the balance between revealing to the clients what is trying to happen and educating them on how to self-manage similar issues in the future for a more positive and productive relationship. Kiki focuses on people development and brings 20+ years of experience in cultural diversity, coaching, training, and team management across various industries, with corporate roles in Sales & Marketing, Business Development, and Training. She specializes in team development, conflict resolution, leadership skills, and systemic coaching. She is known to create a trusted atmosphere of positive energy that encourages the client to align, communicate, learn, and implement changed behavior. With clear education and the use of practical tools, Kiki inspires a can-do spirit among leaders. Her strength lies in combining coaching and training skills to enable growth. Originally from The Netherlands, she speaks Dutch, English, and German. Her cross-cultural experience was established through living in Austria, the United States, Germany and the UAE over the past 18 years, working within culturally diverse environments, organizations and teams. After a four-month adventurous drive from Dubai back to the Netherlands, Kiki and her family are now based close to Utrecht, The Netherlands.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
KK – Kiki Kesseler
[Intro 00:00 – 00:06]
KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in the final episode of season four I’m talking with Kiki Kesseler about vulnerability in relationship. How does vulnerability show up in relationship? Across this conversation we discuss patterns in relationship; expressing what you need; owning “I don’t know” as a pathway into vulnerability; choosing to be vulnerable; and the impact of control and the value of playfulness. Kiki Kessler is a CRR Global faculty member for both courses and the certification programme. Kiki believes that the value of working with teams, individuals, and relationships lies in the balance between revealing to the clients what is trying to happen and educating them on how to self-manage similar issues in the future for a more positive and productive relationship. Kiki focuses on people development and brings 20+ years of experience in cultural diversity, coaching, training, and team management across various industries, with corporate roles in Sales & Marketing, Business Development, and Training. She specializes in team development, conflict resolution, leadership skills, and systemic coaching. She is known to create a trusted atmosphere of positive energy that encourages the client to align, communicate, learn, and implement changed behavior. With clear education and the use of practical tools, Kiki inspires a can-do spirit among leaders. Her strength lies in combining coaching and training skills to enable growth. Originally from The Netherlands, she speaks Dutch, English, and German. Her cross-cultural experience was established through living in Austria, the United States, Germany and the UAE over the past 18 years, working within culturally diverse environments, organizations and teams. After a four-month adventurous drive from Dubai back to the Netherlands, Kiki and her family are now based closer to Utrecht in The Netherlands. So without further ado I bring you Kiki Kesseler talking about vulnerability in relationships.
KC – Kiki, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast, I’m very happy to have you on the show today.
KK – Well thank you Katie, I’m super excited, we’ve been talking about this for some time so we finally made it, thank you for having me here!
KC – and today we’re talking about vulnerability, in particular, very in relationships. So why this topic Kiki?
KK – Well, it actually just came up, I was listening to somebody on LinkedIn I think, or reading something and then I thought let’s reach out, this might be something, there’s something in it to explore on how this shows up in the work that we do but mostly in the relationships that we’re part of, how we show up in life. It, yeah, it did something too me on the inside.
KC – And I notice there’s almost a vulnerability in talking about vulnerability because it’s quite exposing in some ways. Have you found that sort of coming to this conversation today?
KK – Yes. I was having a walk in the forest yesterday with the dog, it was a beautiful sunny day, and I was kind of talking to the dog and to the trees and the birds and myself about this topic just to see what would come up if I would just talk about it. And then it struck me that this is a way of exposing myself, this is showing up in a vulnerable way. I’m a front of the room leader as well for CRR Global and there I always have a timeline to fall back on or a co-lead who can fill in the gaps or who I can lean into into our third entity and we know the topic, we know what we’re talking about, most of the time, but here I’m like well let’s see what shows up, I’m by no means an expert or a specialist on vulnerability, so to really dive into this topic with you is kind of edgy! There’s no timeline.
KC – And yet that is what I’d argue is what makes you, in some ways, an expert, because you’re a human being, you’ve lived these experiences that make us very human and in sharing that that is vulnerability 1-1 in my eyes.
KK – Yeah. So let’s see. Let’s see what shows up between us as we’re having this conversation.
KC – Yeah, so in terms of vulnerability in relationships, where have you recently found this to be most useful?
KK – Well my husband and I, we’ve been together this year for 20 years and married this month for 14, and after so many years together we’ve been, of course, like any other couple, developing certain patterns in the way that we respond to each other. The way that we cross edges together. And, because of life, because of life events, we’ve been going through quite a lot of myth changes over the last couple of years. Some were self chosen, others were thrown upon us, and that caused us to be quite detached from each other. Quite snappy, quite unfulfilled in the relationship if I’m really honest. And instead of me as a relationship coach trying to look at what does this third entity need, what do the people need to do in this relationship, I wasn’t really part of the relationship. I didn’t really allow myself to fully show up being myself. I was more looking at it from a birds eye view, like an external coach looking at my own marriage. Until I got tired of that role, also realizing I couldn’t coach my own relationship. I mean we tell everybody in the courses, right, and still there is that sense of I should know, I do this work, I train other people up in this, of course I can do this. And it turned out I couldn’t. So we asked for help, I think that is where vulnerability already showed up, asking for help, and we went to see a relationship therapist and up until now only a couple of times but I think the key part that showed up there is that – a few things actually. One is that can you express your need, so feel what you feel, get in touch with your bodily experiences, what emotions show up with that? And then what need arises out of that and can you express that? And I realized that I hadn’t been expressing my real needs. I’d been complaining, I’d been finger pointing, blaming, being unhappy, but I didn’t really share what I needed and that felt very vulnerable to do. Still is. We’re still learning. But to express what you really need with the risk, because you can’t expect that what I need, that my husband will fulfill that need, right? There’s no promise that he can or wants to, so there’s a risk that that need won’t get fulfilled, or rejected, or whatever the response might be, so I think there’s a lot of vulnerability in that. And then on the other hand there’s also not taking too much responsibility for what the other person needs. The ability to say no to things. And I think there’s a vulnerability in that too because my past, the way I grew up, in the household, the family, with my parents and my sister, I always wanted to protect the relationship. When my parents were fighting or in an unhappy place, the role within the relationship, within that bigger system, my sister and I, we would take that role of harmonizer, of clearing the air, of being a place where the parents could vent or ventilate, argue! So yeah, that harmonizer, that protecting the relationship has always been a big part of me, I had to unlearn that as a coach but I think in my own marriage that has shown up a lot again. So allowing vulnerability and not being attached to what relationship, where it wants to go is, wow, it’s such a different experience because then the relationship can really evolve. And it strikes me that I know all the theory, but to really practice that in the relationship is another thing.
KC – What strikes me about what you’re saying is it started with you owning that I don’t know and I don’t have to know what this looks like for my relationship and that’s really hard to do, particularly when we’re in this role of coach or leader or front of the room leader. I’ve noticed that in my own marriage, it’s how come I’m not getting this right, I just taught the toxins and I’m now stepping into blaming or defensiveness. And yet to own I don’t know, that feels like almost the door that opened up everything else that followed.
KK – Well, and we’re still in that process. But I think it creates freedom to not know. It allows us to have less expectations of each other, of what it should look like, there’s more space with that.
KC – Marita shared this example of Arnie Mendel in a big group process and apparently he’d often come with the stance of I don’t know, and so there’d be a room of people not sure what to do and he’d be like I don’t know actually, what do you think? And there’s something so powerful about that stance and yet it’s not something we’re taught to do and so it doesn’t necessarily come naturally, I think in our education and our careers we’re told to know and then what does that do to our relationships when we always know and have to know?
KK – Well, it doesn’t do a lot of good I notice. I mean not knowing doesn’t mean that you’re detaching yourself, right, or that you’re giving up or… not knowing is just showing up saying hmm, let’s see what might emerge if we all don’t know, or if we don’t pretend to know. Because, and this started very young already for me, in university I was given a role where I had to kind of teach younger students a certain skill, I studied hospitality management. I became this micro-manager because I thought I had to know everything. It was very uncomfortable. They said Kiki I like you outside of these hours, together, but here you show up so strange. And I still have that sometimes where I feel stepping into a newer role that I need to know and it makes me very stuck up. Not free, not open. Yeah, having a very different impact on how I would like it to be. On the other hand, with not knowing and letting things emerge and choosing to be vulnerable. So very often as a front of the room leader we have the chance to be coached by our colleague in a demo. And in order to help students cross their edges, go a little deeper, go a little further than where they thought they were gonna go, we can choose to be vulnerable and pick a topic that’s really real in our lives. That’s the benefit also of having this role, we get free coaching every now and again, right? The impact if it’s real, if it’s not a theatre show that we’re putting on by any means, but if we allow ourselves to be vulnerable and I’ve noticed when I do so, when I really look at some of the parts of my life where it’s difficult and explore that being witnessed by all of these beautiful participants, there’s a different emotional field afterwards which allows yeah the students then to say hmm, let’s actually pick something that is not out there with my client or out there and I can see, no, it’s something that is really going on in their lives and that’s important to them. And then their practice has a whole different impact and would they have chosen something a little less edgy. And there’s no right or wrong, I mean, everybody crosses the edges that they’re ready to cross, but it does, it does invite people to do so.
KC – I’m noticing that the idea of sort of scripted acting vs improvisation is coming up for me and it makes me think of, there’s this play called People, Places, Things and there’s this wonderful monologue that talks about, you know, in a play I have a script, I have where to stand, I have my costume, the lights are on me, I know exactly what to do, but the actress really struggled with her life because you don’t have those directions, you don’t have that control, and I wonder whether there’s almost this releasing of control in this vulnerability, it’s more of an improvisation where you’re open to things showing up that you didn’t expect. Does that resonate with you?
KK – Yeah. Absolutely. Because then you can really feel. Then your mind is not in overdrive. The information is coming from different places, impulses show up, emotions appear, things that I might have marginalized, been secondary for a long time, they can suddenly come to the forefront. It’s not the mind controlling, it’s the whole being allowing that to be part of the conversation of the coaching of the moment.
KC – I guess my question then is how do we, how do we infuse vulnerability into our days or our trainings when we do have more of a plan or an agenda, maybe we have to, I don’t know, get the kids to school, get to this meeting or maybe we’re running a training where there is a clear framework to follow. How do we do that and infuse vulnerability so it doesn’t become so robotic and closed to this influence that we’re talking about?
KK – I would like to say I don’t know.
KC – I love that, practicing what we preach.
KK – Because, ah, it’s not easy! I think it really also starts, for me at least, I like to say I’m not a morning person and this week my husband is away on a trip in the mountains so that’s really lovely but that also means that I have to get out of bed in the morning to get the kids out of bed, to get them ready for school, to get them to school on time, and that’s quite a challenge for me personally. I’ve been through quite some challenging times since end of, well, since a year now, my mom passed away last year and that really is teaching me to take time for me, to allow time for feeling in pain, for feeling the need to be alone, for feeling nothing, but really being more conscious about that because I’ve also been in places and I’m still unlearning certain habits that are not good for me like going to bed late, going to social media for hours on end, eating way too much chocolate. You know, those are things that can be nice to give yourself if there’s a limit to it but when it’s limitless it’s not showing up vulnerable, it’s actually shying away from vulnerability. So why am I talking about this? It’s because through this process of losing my mom and mourning that and all of the pain and the physical stuff that is coming out, like neck pain and back pain, and there’s so much tension that wants to be released, I’m learning how to better self care but it’s really baby steps, it’s not so easy to unlearn habits that have been with me for a long time. So I think that self care piece, listening to what do I really need, not shying away from those needs, allows me then to go to bed on time, take the bike instead of the car. I kick myself over an edge, I’m going to Pilates again for the first time since forever this week. There’s so many things that I have a choice if I say yes I am vulnerable. Yes, I don’t know but I’m gonna try, rather than shy away from it, acknowledging it and making different choices from that place. And I think that might be, in a very long winded way to answer your question, the thing that I think might help me to be in the moment to get the kids to school, to do the work, because it’s not that it needs to be perfect, bless my parents but they both have and had quite a perfectionist streak to them in some levels of their lives, not in everything, which gave me a lot. There’s a high quality level that I aspire to because of that, but it also limits. If you think that everything needs to be perfect then I shy away from even trying or going in overdrive or being frustrated when it doesn’t look that way, if it’s not perfect I get frustrated, so it’s like well, maybe there’s another way, that’s one of two evils, maybe this is what it actually wanted to look like, maybe I didn’t know all the other options of looking at this particular situation, of being in this situation, so, yeah, it’s again letting go of thinking that I need to know everything, that I have an answer to everything, that I need to be involved with everything, it’s a lot to take on! So like I said earlier, it’s a bit of a freeing sensation to be more vulnerable.
KC – That’s a very powerful example of, I didn’t think about how vulnerability gives us more choice. And how in saying I know we shut down all of the other options because as we know from ORSC we all hold a piece of the truth but as soon as you say I don’t know in a connected way, as you said before, not disconnected and uncaring, you open yourself up to a whole range of options and I’ve not thought before that actually that is a path to new choices and patterns that may serve us better.
KK – Yeah.
KC – I wanted to check about, when you said about presence and spending time with yourself, I know last year when we were working together you mentioned some work around embodiment and I wonder if that’s a tool fed into your vulnerability practice?
KK – How did you know? No, well, yes, I’ve been taking some wonderful embodied leadership courses and also there, and I’m seeing a physio, physiotherapist and an osteopath for some of the physical symptoms that I’m having right now like pain. At the same time, do I really follow the instructions that they give me? Do I do the practices that are learned in the embodied leadership? Mmm, sometimes! On a good day! Yeah, I don’t know, I think like I said it’s baby steps in that self care. Embodiment and vulnerability, I think my body is saying help, like do something for yourself and with my mom I saw that she wasn’t doing a lot to stay fit even before she got ill but in the last years of her life she was kind of ok with not being so fit. So that for me was like oh, you know, don’t become like her and really make sure you get fit but then I don’t really do it most of the time so I think there is still something vulnerable and I haven’t figured out why that is. Is it discipline, is it really caring, is it the need to look good? I don’t know. I really don’t know how the embodied practice is gonna come into this work but I know there’s something with it, I’ll let you know once I figure that one out but if you have a hunch, I don’t know?
KC – Well I was thinking as you were talking about the presence and the time with yourself how we often, well I think with this topic it, there’s a lot of theory around vulnerability, there’s a lot of research, there’s many books, there’s many Ted talks and it’s very much an intellectual standpoint in terms of how we understand vulnerability and I guess I’m wondering how does vulnerability live in our bodies and where might there be intelligence that we’re not tapping into just because it’s not showing up in the usual way we process information?
KK – Well, in that regard I definitely think that whatever you or whatever I, probably, wasn't fully processing on an awareness level in my body is giving me a lot of information. Beginning of not a frozen shoulder but there’s something going on in my left shoulder, I had dizzy spells the weeks after my mom passed, there was a lot of information my body was telling me to actually slow down, take care of this wonderful envelope that you’re living in in this life, don’t just go on autopilot but I think it was a big message for me to self care, not just on an emotional or mental level but also on a physical level. And it probably will keep telling me stuff until I really start doing so.
KC – I think that word you used, autopilot, stands out because I think vulnerability is never going to be out autopilot default mode because it does the opposite of protect us in some ways, or at least in terms of our ancient instincts it feels very exposed, very open and that perhaps wasn’t so useful to us thousands of years ago but now we’re starting to see that it’s not just a strength in our personal relationships but in our leadership too. Have you noticed that in terms of, maybe that backwards understanding of how we protect ourselves and how we open ourselves up?
KK – Yeah, well, it automatically – and I think you mentioned that before but it takes me back to these toxic behaviors that people come up with, probably unintentionally, but in times of stress, in times of conflict, in times of change when we look at teams, when we’re working with teams. And there’s always an underlying purpose to these toxins and when we explore them with teams, through the use of the toxin grid for instance, it has an element of protection like you just said. Like something is shield to make us feel better about, to make these team members feel better about themselves in those moments where it’s not yet so safe, where the trusting environment is still establishing and especially when then a team member starts to speak that voice of vulnerability, it’s so important to highlight that, to feel into the emotional field like how is it different now that we hear this voice being expressed on behalf of your team? But at the same time it’s also very important to catch it when out of that knee jerk, autopilot reaction there is a response that often wants to shut down that vulnerable voice. And hey, I’m living in The Netherlands, I am Dutch, I recognize it when sarcasm is offered as a joke and that happened last week when I was working with a team and it happened more than once and when we were in the toxins grid it happened again and I was like ok, just slow down, what just happened, what was your intention, what was the impact? And you could just feel that ffft, the whole shift taking place in that system because it was named and it was, it was not made wrong but it was acknowledged that there’s a pattern so those kind of interventions and realizations for the team will help them to feel more trusting toward each other which, in the end, also allows them to show up more and more vulnerable which again breeds more trust, so there is that constant building on each other when teams learn how to do that. And from my own bodily responses in that, so again, you were asking how does the body give you information, I don’t know how this is for you but when I’m working with a team where there’s, any relationship by the way, that I’m part of in that moment, where there is tension I can feel it in my body, my knees start to shake, I get a, like a butterflies but unhappy butterflies in my stomach and my heart rate might go up a bit. I start to feel a shiver in my voice. So yeah there’s a lot of information that tells me that something's going on. Something is off here and needs attention. So I use my body a lot for that and then exposing that, saying hey this is what’s going on for me, what’s happening for you? That’s again a way of showing up vulnerable and allowing and inviting others to actually express what’s going on for them.
KC – I like where you’re pointing us as well in terms of how some of the toxins show up in quite subtle ways and in ways we might dismiss as oh, that’s just who we are as a team or a couple. And I’ve noticed with quite a few couples I’ve coached as of late, primarily in the UK and then also some couple friends, that in the UK there’s a lot of banter and that shows up a lot in couples and you realize that it’s quite playful and it seems harmless but actually that stops vulnerability from ever really showing up. And this isn’t to dive noise all of those couples but one couple, for example, it turned out that one of the partners had never been given praise growing up, so to receive praise is so hard and almost hurtful whereas it’s much easier to get like a joke from the partner. But all of those sort of, almost playful mechanisms that we’ve inherited or adapted in our lives, they’re not always the most skillful ways of showing up together and it makes me think why don’t we prototype more in our relationships, it seems like we just inherit what we’ve got or we learn some ways of being with this new partner or this team and that’s just what we do and we don’t think actually this is 1-1 but what about point two version of this or point three, like with all of our other projects and processes we strategize, we prototype, we improve, and yet I don’t know why with relationship we expect to know how to do it straight away and what we’ve got is what we’ve got.
KK – So right. There’s so much generational baggage that we keep carrying with us like a dead horse sometimes. I mean, again, you know there’s lots of good stuff coming from our ancestors but there’s stuff that you think really?! Why, what’s showing up? I’m showing up like my mom and you’re showing up like your dad and that is not a good combination! So yeah but it takes awareness and it takes, again, I don’t know if it’s just vulnerability, I think it's also some courage to say come on, I know that we’re doing this but is this really how we wanna be? My pitfall is that I then fall into that coach mode –
KC – Yes.
KK – because, you know, I know the theory or I know the potential, I can see what we could end up like, but can I just let that role sit on the side and just be me in that relationship and again see, see how I feel, not like this is what I can see for us, no, this is what I need right now, it’s very different.
KC – And you can see how damaging that can be in the long term, these patterns that play out, that when they play out for so long it’s like wow, I’ve never actually expressed myself in this way for so long and this is a big part of who I am. To give you an example there’s this couple I was working with and they were talking about their engagement and it was meant to be this quite funny story but it was quite spiteful, like there was quite a lot of this didn’t go right and this didn’t go right and it was a real challenges, problems narrative and poking fun at the other. But you’ve gotta think, that’s your story going into your, hopefully, lifelong relationship. Is this who you wanna be together? Of course, being playful and funny is great but there was a lot of bitterness under the surface and I wonder what it would be like if in all of our relationships we were stopping and thinking more is this who we wanna be together? Is this really who we wanna be together in the next, you know, 10 years or 50 years? Or do we wanna bring a different energy?
KK – I love how you’re bringing in the design team alliance here and it’s so important to revisit that, especially when these myth changes have arrived. Like I said a choice is just thrown upon your relationship – are we daring to say to each other hey, this has served us up until now and probably a little bit earlier than that but is it serving us anymore to show up the way we do? How do we wanna be together? I mean, I’m turning 45 next week and I’m like ok, I’m definitely halfway, right, if not past mid-point, so the notion of life is not forever is, well I mean hopefully there’s still lots of time I have but you never know, right? So to become more aware of that and saying hey, great, if we can spend our life together, wonderful, but here are my terms or this is what I would need. And it doesn’t, again, mean that my husband needs to fulfil all of those needs but at least put it all on the table and create from that again. I don’t think we’ve had that exact conversation like I just mentioned it but we’re in it, we’re doing more of that, we’re having more conversation, we’re asking more about how do you feel and not immediately looking for how do we solves this. Which, in all fairness, is more his kind of style to approach what shows up for us, but can we also challenge each other in that and role switch? Even though, yes, men do more of that and women do more of this but it doesn’t have to look that way, so also those kind of things. Can we be a bit more playful? I think that is one more thing that starts to show up with showing up more vulnerable, like we spoke about having more freedom, more openness for information, more choice, but a bit more playfulness as well. And see the whole person because I show up more like myself, I show up with all the nice and not so nice and pretty and not so pretty parts, I think if I do that and he does that then we can see each other as whole human beings and not just the thing that we didn’t like anymore, we focus on, and you know the 2% truth and the more that I focus on it the bigger it becomes and, yeah, so it brings more playfulness and joy if you get to experience each others whole range again.
KC – It feels like such a live conversation, even though I’m sure it’s challenging at times, it feels like it’s so energized and real. Yeah, what a way to be in relationship because I think many of us, even if our primary isn’t positive or fully positive, we hold on to it right because it’s what we know. And there is vulnerability in letting go of the primary, even if the primary sucks which is so interesting isn’t it because we’re so not good at change as human beings that we will hold onto something that is rubbish for a lifetime just because it’s what we know, which baffles me!
KK – Yeah, and you’re absolutely right I think that’s what’s true for many people. And also maybe not knowing another way. Having not had examples, I mean, we’re very privileged. We’re in an environment surrounded by wonderful coaches, trainers, specialists on topics, we have so much exposure to this kind of material which inspires and allows you to say hey how does it actually work in my life? But a lot of people don’t know of this or might not have access to it or, so their is, of course you can say you always have a choice but there is no choice in just staying put. So, I feel very privileged to know some of these options on how to make change and be able to go and see a professional who can help us have different types of conversations and yeah that definitely helps.
KC – And I think, what you said there made me think as well, it’s really quite simple, whilst this work can get quite complicated in terms of systems theory and the tools, really it’s about relationship first and so often I come back to that with my clients, with my marriage, with my friends, with my mother- relationship first. And it’s not something that comes naturally to me, at least, I don’t think generally as humans we’re designed to go relationship first and yet when we do it’s a very different way of living and loving and leading.
KK – Mm. Yeah. And the funny thing, I totally hear you and I don’t think that I’ve really put relationship first in the way that you are describing it, but the interesting thing for me recently is that I’ve always put the relationship first in such a way that I forgot to or I didn’t really acknowledge my part in the relationship. So a relationship had to work and I would do anything for that but therefore I wasn’t fully in it because I was more a relationship on having other people express their voice stronger and me adapting to that.
KC – Would you say there was more social intelligence then but you kind of lacked maybe tuning into what that social intelligence was saying? Would you say that was perhaps the compromise for you?
KK – Yeah yeah yeah. I wasn't allowing my own voice to be really present, or my own needs, and I think that’s where the vulnerability piece comes in to. And you see all these three types of intelligence – emotional, social and relationship systems intelligence are necessary to function. If I only sit on social intelligence and relationship systems intelligence but I forget my own part in it, doesn’t work either.
KC – Well then it’s really not complete is it because if it doesn’t include you then it’s not the relationship. And so maybe we need to rework that relationship first statement for people like you who are more empathetic, like relationship first and that includes you! Because I think it does easily distract us or detract us from us, and I think as coaches and leaders we tend to focus on others and then maybe we do do a disservice to ourselves and then the relationship because we’re a part of that.
KK – Which is interesting because we also, you know, when people come to for instance a certification course in the beginning one, I often see because I’m a co-leader and a supervisor in the certification programs for CRR Global, is that there’s a lot of focus on I wanna learn how to do this better with my clients which is absolutely true, you know, the mastery of using the tools, skills and competencies is partially going to pay your bills and that’s why you’ve entered the program, totally get that, I think that was true for me too. Towards the end of the program there is usually this notion of I’ve changed so much as a person, I can see myself differently showing up int eh world, in the relationships that I’m part of. So that is something that brings me a lot of fulfillment and joy when people speak to that personal impact that they’ve experienced through this work.
KC – And that speaks too, maybe it was Faith who said it, but how relationships systems intelligence includes and transcends EQ and SI, so it’s not separate from, it’s not one and not the other, it’s all of it and it’s something more than – 1+1=3. Thank you so much for this gorgeous conversation Kiki, I’ve had an absolute blast dancing with you today, I can’t wait to get you back on for season five. I’m already signing you up for episodes in season five!
KK – Great, I think first edge of putting myself out there on this platform, on the beautiful platform that you’ve created, is part of like we start the conversation with, to show up vulnerable. I think it’s less about what other people will think of it, of course there’s an aspiration that it’ll be inspirational or bring some value to other people but in the end it’s more on having a great conversation with you, if it’s recorded or not, to, yeah, and express this. If you need to talk sometimes outside of your own head and not just to the dog and the trees and the birds but to have a real conversation with the wonderful questions that you’ve asked and that takes us to new information so thank you very much for having me, it’s been an absolute pleasure.
KC – And thank you for walking your talk and I know that this is going to be inspiration for many people. Thank you Kiki and take care.
[Music outro begins 38:45]
KC – A huge thanks to Kiki for that wonderful discussion that explored some of the different dimensions of vulnerability. Here are my key takeaways. Allowing vulnerability and not being attached to where the relationship wants to go can be a very liberating experience and one that creates the space for the relationship to evolve. Taking the stance of I don’t know doesn’t mean you are detaching and not caring, it means you’re showing up and holding a stance of let’s see what might emerge if we don’t know or don’t pretend to know. Vulnerability is also about being present with your own needs. Relationship systems intelligence is incomplete if it doesn’t include emotional intelligence or the system of me. Relationship systems intelligence includes and transcends emotional intelligence (EQ) and social intelligence (SI) and holds that 1+1=3. As we come to the end of season four, a mammoth season of 30 episodes with the podcast hitting 80,000 downloads from across 129 countries I want to say a huge thanks to all the wonderful guests who join me across the season and also a huge thank you to you for supporting and sharing this podcast and joining us in putting relationship first. Relationships really do matter so thank you for being in relationship with this podcast and we so look forward to welcoming you back for season five later in the year. In the meantime, do look out for special bonus episodes that’ll be launching over the coming months. Thank you for listening to the Relationship Matters podcast. If you enjoyed this episode please share it with your colleagues and friends so that we can continue to spread these ideas across the globe, and if you haven’t already, do subscribe wherever you get your podcasts to make sure you never miss an episode. And for more information on the ORSC courses please visit CRRGlobal.com. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters from humanity to nature to the larger whole.
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