In this episode, Katie talks with CRR Global faculty member Neil Edwards about positive aspects. Across the conversation, they discuss:
Neil Edwards is a Front of the Room Leader and Certification Faculty for CRR Global. Neil specializes in expanding range and strengthening resilience for leaders and creating capacity and capability of teams and organizational systems to be positive, productive, and agile in the face of change. He coaches and teaches individuals, teams, and larger organizational systems to identify values, define purpose, act intentionally, think systemically, be inclusive, and nurture wellbeing. He has extensive experience coaching accountants, engineers, attorneys, MBAs, executives, and finance; brand; and IT professionals in corporations, government, and professional services.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
In this episode, Katie talks with CRR Global faculty member Neil Edwards about positive aspects. Across the conversation, they discuss:
Neil Edwards is a Front of the Room Leader and Certification Faculty for CRR Global. Neil specializes in expanding range and strengthening resilience for leaders and creating capacity and capability of teams and organizational systems to be positive, productive, and agile in the face of change. He coaches and teaches individuals, teams, and larger organizational systems to identify values, define purpose, act intentionally, think systemically, be inclusive, and nurture wellbeing. He has extensive experience coaching accountants, engineers, attorneys, MBAs, executives, and finance; brand; and IT professionals in corporations, government, and professional services.
For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
NE - Neil Edwards
[Intro 00:00 – 00:06]
KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode, I'm talking with CRR Global faculty member Neil Edwards about positive aspects. Across this conversation we discuss the importance of becoming aware of positive aspects, the impact of the brain's negative bias, how positive aspects can be an ally for difficult conversations, the ongoing learning journey surrounding emotional intelligence and ways we can become more familiar with positive and negative aspects, both in ourselves and the systems we work and live within. Neil Edwards is a front of the room leader and certification faculty for CRR Global. Neal specializes in expanding range and strengthening resilience for leaders and creating capacity and capability of teams and organizational systems to be positive, productive and agile in the face of change. He coaches and teaches individuals, teams and large organizational systems to identify values, define purpose, act intentionally, think systemically, be inclusive, and nurture well-being. So, without further ado, I bring you Neil Edwards, talking about: what is the positive aspect?
KC - Neil, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. I am so excited to have you back on the show today. Welcome.
NE - I am always excited to be here with you, Katie. I don't know how many times I've been here so far but it's always lovely to be back and be in conversation.
KC – Likewise. We have quite the topic today: what is the positive aspect? I wonder if we can start by talking about what we mean when we say a positive aspect.
NE – Positive aspect – it’s such ORSC-y and coachy language. But, we have multi-dimensional personalities, which is different than multiple personalities (as in multiple personality disorder), we’re complex, we're human beings, and we're complex. We don't show up the same way all the time, that would be pretty flat and pretty boring. If we consider all of the various contexts of our lives - work, coupling, friendships, sporting and competition, being with neighbors, then it's easy to see we have multiple ways of being depending on the relationship that we're in. And in each of those relationships, there are positive or more resonant ways of being and there are negative or more dissonant ways of being, whatever language you want to use. So, when we say positive aspects, we're talking about the positive ways of being that's a part of our natural and authentic personality, when we're in relationship with ourselves, with our environment or with others. So, the positive ways we can show up in context.
KC - Okay, so I imagine there'll be a couple of people listening who will think, ‘okay, so I get it, we have positive and negative parts of self, but why does it matter if we're in touch with them or not?’ Why would we go out of our way to look for these positive aspects?
NE – Well I don’t know if we go out of our way to look for them. I think we might spend some time noticing that they exist, and that we also have negative aspects and understanding the distinction between the two within us. So, when we know that that is true - and they each inform the other: shadow and light, positive and negative, they inform the other - so, if we are aware of aspects of ourselves, if we’re, for example, aware that this this negative aspect is showing up or this negative energy is showing up, it is the positive aspect that we can turn to, to help us recover to our best self. Recover to creativity. If we think about energy - negative energy, negative emotions, they begin to cripple our ability to be creative and to solve problems and to have empathy. We have this bias towards negativity as human beings, but it doesn't necessarily serve us well all the time. It informs us that some need is not being met, but we need our positive aspects to be in relationship with ourselves in a more creative way, or in relationship with others or the world around us in a more creative way versus a reactive way. Because our negative aspects are going to have us be more reactive and try to survive. Positive aspects are going to have us be more responsive and try to create.
KC - So do you think the negative bias that we have in our brains causes us to become more aware of these negative aspects? And actually, there's some work to be done for us to rebalance the books in our brain so that we see that there are so many positive aspects to
NE - I lean into both. I think the positive - not toxic positivity, just trying to be cheerful all the time - I think the positive aspects allow us to see with some neutrality, the negative aspects of ourselves and not to spiral downward into a sorry pity puddle. I think the positive aspects allow us to see more of ourselves because we're out of the box, so to speak. We’re in a more creative space, we can see more we have we have more range. When we are reacting, when we are trying to survive or we’re in flight, fight or freeze our vision narrows, our cognitive capacity goes down, our heart rate goes up, our blood pressure goes up, we simply do not have as much capacity to be the expansive human beings that we are because we're trying to survive. So, the positive aspect allows us to see more. And when we become aware, then we can do something about it. We can leverage the negative aspect again, because I think it informs us.
KC – You used language before about resonant and dissonant. I think for many of us, there's connotations around what positive and what negative mean. I know in my own work, my personal development journey, you could say, what appears to be positive has changed and evolved over time. How do you hold that? That emergent sense of positivity in oneself?
NE - Yeah, we are meaning making machines. So, when we are positive and negative, we hear positive, we interpret that as good. We hear negative, we interpret that as bad. I think as we evolve and as we grow in our own development, I think our greatest self can step back with neutrality and get curious about negative and get curious about positive, without connotation. We know that we have emotions. We say positive emotions, these are emotions that have us feel good. We use language to describe everything. So, there's something about it that we like. And we have negative emotions and there's something about it we don't like. They both inform us. I think that is the space that is useful. Like when we are aware that something is trying to happen, something's trying to emerge. What is that? I feel good. What is it that has me feel good? I feel bad. What is it that has me feel bad. Without judging the word good or bad but to just get curious about what is that and I think it brings us closer to knowing ourselves in a more intimate way and it gives us the capacity to be more capable in relationship with others. When there is conflict, like, ‘oh, I don't feel so good right now in this conversation or this relationship’. What's that about? It allows us to ask the question, and the more skillful we get, the more agile we get with noticing and being able to ask that question in the moment.
KC - Yeah, it makes me think about how for me, a while ago, positive, used to be happy. And it's not necessarily a bad thing but that also led to me, sometimes, people pleasing. And it's just interesting how, when we're not neutral with any system, whether that be with ourselves or the systems we work with, we can suddenly be quite biased towards one way of being and that can be disruptive over time.
NE - Yes, it can. I chuckled because my youngest daughter, she’s 12 years old, she tests out jokes on me. She’ll be like ‘I have a joke’ and she brings a joke or a riddle or something and sometimes I don't laugh. I smile, it's cute, right? I remember having this conversation with her more than once because she wants to know, ‘was it funny, was it funny, was it funny?’ I said, ‘well, it was humorous.’ That neutrality and understanding that you could be humorous and that's positive. It doesn't have to be funny ‘haha’ all the time. To pursue funny all the time is like trying to please all the time. But they're both positive and I think it takes that neutrality to look at them and say they're both humorous. What is humor? So, this positive doesn't necessarily mean happy ‘haha’.
KC - Yeah, I'm sure many of us have protection mechanisms that have served us in certain systems. They will be the things we initially say, ‘yeah, that's my positive aspect’. But it might be so primary, so autopilot that actually it doesn't allow us to access the other parts of our range. Like that example, where actually you don't have to be funny ‘haha’ to be humorous, and to bring a different quality.
NE - Exactly. And I think that type of noticing requires us to go below the surface. We had a brief conversation before we started recording today about getting below the surface and intimacy. And I think getting below the surface allows us to see more of our range, and to create distinctions between these aspects of positivity that can actually have nuance. And if we find ourselves being biased toward one thing, one way all the time, that might be a protective mechanism. That may be limiting our capacity to have more range, to have more capability and agility across many more relationships. To be with more situations without losing ourselves.
KC - I wonder as well, in this investigation into ourselves, whether actually, a so-called negative aspect can be transformed into a positive one if we start to understand it differently. If we start to really look at what is the underlying need here? What's the disappointed dream, perhaps. Because then we can really understand that as opposed to just letting it play out, and potentially transform it into something that is helpful or skillful.
NE - Yeah, I love that. I don't know that I would say we transform the negative into a positive. But it goes back to what I said in that it can inform us. And so, you're either leaning into this notion of behind every complaint, there's an unmet need or an unspoken need. A longing. And so, when we can pause and slow down enough to look at the dissonance, to look at this negative aspect, to get curious about it, it can inform us about the longing. The positive thing that one is seeking or wanting or desiring, or the value that has been dishonored or stepped on that you're really trying to go for. It gives us information. This is why we, in the work that we do, when we talk about conflict we can think about negative as conflict, we can think about dissonance as conflict, we can think about conflict as conflict - they're all some form of conflict. What we've learned and what we know is to get curious about it. It's not bad, not by definition ‘bad’, something is trying to happen and that thing that's trying to happen might be the longing, the positive thing that's trying to reveal itself.
KC - Would you say that when we're truly coming from a positive aspect, we're in alignment with our intention, whereas when we're coming from a negative aspect, there's more… well, there's a lack of awareness and there's not so much conscious intent around the why? The why we're doing what we're doing.
NE - Coming from. If our negative aspect has a hold on us. we're not being intentional. It has a hold on us. We're not being intentional. We're not really honoring the positive aspect, the thing that we want, the thing that we're longing for. I don't know if that really answers your question but if we're coming from that place, and we're hooked, we're triggered, I'm not sure it's possible to really honor the positive aspect that is longing to be seen or heard or to create something.
KC – So by deep diving into the so called ‘negative aspect’ we create more choice for ourselves, would you say, around what drives us?
NE - If we dig into the negative aspects, we create more choice?
KC - Yes. Say we're out with friends and jealousy shows up and that, for you, is a negative aspect. Most of the time we just leave it and we just let it go, but say we dig into that - does that then give us more choice?
NE - Oh, I see what you're saying. Dig into it as in to explore what's going on here.
KC – Yeah!
NE - Yes, yes. If we can explore it in a healthy way, with curiosity.
KC - How do we do that?
NE - How do we do that? Well, we have to notice. This is why nurturing and cultivating the positive aspects of ourselves and understanding those aspects are important. Because if we don't and we are sitting in or coming from this place of jealousy, and we haven't cultivated our positive aspects, it would be very difficult.
KC – So, are you saying that in order to - I don't want to say interrogate – but… inquire around this negative jealous part, you would come from, say, a positive aspect, like curiosity in order to do that in a much more skillful way and hold it in a safe way for yourself?
NE - Yes.
KC - Okay.
NE - I think that would work with that personal development work, the reflective work, this first noticing, ‘oh, I am jealous. I am being jealous.’ Just notice that. I think that noticing is the positive aspect speaking.
KC - And that's huge, isn't it? That awareness.
NE – It’s self-awareness. We have to develop self-awareness, emotional self-awareness. When we talk about emotional intelligence and we make distinctions between emotional, social, and relationship systems intelligence, the most fundamental thing and the first step in developing emotional intelligence is emotional self-awareness. And then accurate self-assessment. And then personal power. People talk about emotional, social and relationship systems intelligence a lot without actually knowing what are the components of those things?
KC – I think we like to think about emotional intelligence as a sort of tick box. ‘Oh, yeah. I've got EQ, I'm good.’ And it's actually quite an uncomfortable, ongoing process of looking in the mirror and realizing that we are flawed because that's what being human means. That's emotionally intelligent. But I think, for many of us, that's too vulnerable and so we don't go there. We hold our pride.
NE - Yeah, we do and it's not a tick box, it's something to cultivate and practice all the time. I don't remember what year it was, but it was some time ago… I want to say somewhere around 2011 or 2012. Beloit research, Human Capital Research: they did some research with CEOs and senior executives around emotional intelligence, and they found that senior leaders become more and more emotionally intelligent because they thought they had it and they stopped practicing it as they move up the ladder.
KC - That's interesting.
NE - And it is a practice. It is a practice, and the best leaders reflect. And in reflective practice you need to check: what was that? What was I feeling? What did I notice? How did I respond? Where do I go from here?
KC - Yeah, that's really interesting. Also, in the way it's taught in our program, it feels quite linear. You've got EQ, SI, RSI, but RSI is nothing if we don't have this emotional intelligence and we need to keep coming back to it.
NE - Yeah. It can't exist. You can't be socially intelligent and not be emotionally intelligent - it doesn't work that way.
KC - Yeah.
NE - It requires a foundation and then it requires continuous practice in order to live and exist in all three. And we're human so we're always recovering to it, because we're naturally triggered, we are naturally reactive. And so, we constantly have to recover. And in order to do that, we have to cultivate our understanding of our emotions, and particularly, our positive emotions, because those are the things, those are the emotions, those are the aspects, that have us recover.
KC - It's making me think that there is so much opportunity to practice this because the world is a training ground - It's our dojo. We're always going to get tripped up and triggered because life throws us so many curveballs, whether it be an illness or a death or a redundancy or inflation. There are so many things that will cause us to show up in ways we don't like, and I think the challenge or the call to action is can we look in the mirror and say, ‘oh, that part of me showed up... I wonder why?’
NE - I wonder why. I wonder why I just got pissed off. And there's nothing wrong with getting pissed off, but to understand what was it? There’s so much going on in the world, right? I read this New York Times article two days ago, and after a couple days another article. So, off the coast of Florida, the water got so hot, 100 degrees, it killed coral, coral reefs, which are dying. And this article that I read a couple of days ago, there's a nonprofit organization that is trying to do some restorative work for coral and so they have these coral farms that are off the coast of Florida where they are growing samples of coral. And so, after they heard about all these reefs bleaching and dying, they drove down to go check on and to recover their samples so they could bring them on land or something like that, to preserve them, so they don't die. Anyway, long story short, one of the scientists dove down and saw the coral in their area where they keep them and they were still brown, they still had the brown color, and was relieved. And as she approached and got closer, to her dismay, and she touched it, the brown color, the outer skin of the coral fell off.
KC - Oh, wow.
NE - It was already dead, but it had not bleached. Anyway, that was really sad, obviously, it’s like a new way of coral death. It had died so fast it didn't have time to bleach. I remember reading this and I reacted with immediate frustration and anger around global warming. Pissed off at everybody that's denying it and all these sorts of things. But then I caught myself and I thought, ‘hmm, this is just another signal, what's going on with me is the hurt that I feel’. But then I noticed it as another signal. I started to you think what are some creative things that the world that humanity, that civilization, can begin to do now to try to recover and turn this around. Because I found myself just starting to get pissed off and lashing out in my mind, at everybody that's been in denial. That was just a moment for me. But these things constantly happen, and we are going to react, and we have to catch ourselves and recover. The part of that had me recover was the love for humanity and the love for the environment and our planet and just for something better and the vision of what it could be.
KC - Well it makes me think of something Faith said around nature. So often, we hear these negative narratives around global warming, for example, which are very true and very real. And she said, ‘can you lean into the positive side of nature? The fact that you love your park, or you love running outside, or you love swimming in the ocean’. I think quite often, particularly with some of these bigger challenges, the focus is on the negative and then it becomes hard to really lean in because if we don't care for something, or we don't feel positive about it, how can we really be creative and send our energy that way?
NE - Exactly. That's what happened for me in that moment. I grew up with the ocean, I love the ocean. The pleasure it's brought me in my life, and I was just on vacation and I went out on a sailboat and I saw blue whales, and it's accessing that, that opens the door to creative thinking. It opens the door to empathy, and it allows us to be responsive, rather than reactive, to our world. So just cultivating our positive aspects allows us to recover and allows us to be in right relationship and better relationships with those around us, with the environment, and with ourselves.
KC - It seems that positive aspects are, in many ways, an ally for difficult conversations and challenging situations. How can we make sure we're leading with these because I think many of us right now, and we can see this in our divided societies, we're leading with the negative aspects and that's not helping us find alignment.
NE.- Yeah. I think there's a lot of individual responsibility here for the sake of global systems. For me, if we dream about a world where all of our needs are met. We dream of a world where everybody has some sense of belonging. Everyone feels safe. Everyone feels like they have meaning, and they can contribute to society. For me, that has me walk differently and wonder, what is it that this person across from me, that I have deep disagreement with, longs for? What am I missing? Because they're human too. I might not like them. When we talk about alignment in conflict, it really is about getting to a place where we can see common interests. But when we lead with the negativity, and stay there, we're not going to see common interests.
KC - It feels as if these positive aspects are always looking for alignment. I know as ORSCers we hold that alignment is always available but not always accessed. I think that distinction that we often come back to, that alignment isn’t agreement, you don't have to like someone to align with them, is so key here. Because the positive aspect isn't a walkover. It's not ‘oh, yeah, no, that's a great idea’ if it's not, in their opinion.
NE – Yeah. I would modify what you said a little bit. Alignment is always available, and it's not often used in today's world. It's available. And I think cultivating these positive aspects of us is crucially necessary, right now, to find common interests.
KC - That's such a good point. I think even in our family system, so often, we're not coming from a place of alignment. It's individualistic, it's me, my way and the highway. That's not serving us and it's not serving our systems.
NE - No, it's not at all. I love that you brought alignment into this because that's probably the most crucial place that we need to look right now, getting aligned. Because there's just so much polarization and division in the world across so many different topics, right now, that are hot. But even when it's not hot, we see this in the work we do around the third entity. We have an exercise called the third entity where we have people step around a triangle and they focus on themselves and they focus on another and then they focus on sitting in a place of being, the relationship looking back at two people. It's a very short exercise but even in those differences people are surprised that they can step out of the differences that they were sitting in and immediately connect with the other person through a positive aspect and then see the relationship from that point of view, which is where creativity comes in, through the relationship and create the relationship. Our highest achievements come through relationship. We use that when the conflict isn't very hot, but again, it's still coming into alignment yet.
KC - It's almost as if these positive aspects are very relational, they're very relationship orientated. And they take us to a balcony view or a meta view, we could say, because it's not so much about me, my way and the highway. They're focused on the relationship and finding alignment there. I want to call that forth in all of us, in all of our systems, because I really do think we need more of that in the world.
NE - Yeah, I agree with you, and I love the notion of the balcony view. I would turn that balcony view of ourselves, looking back at ourselves, in relationship with ourselves and all of the aspects of ourselves. It's about getting in relationship with all of our aspects so that we can be in better relationships with others. In better relationships with the world. And I think that's where people are missing the boat, so to speak - doing the personal work. Relationship work is also personal work.
KC - And we never arrive. I think many of us have been waiting for our piece of paper that tells us that ‘yes, you've nailed emotional intelligence 101’, and something else will trip us up. And even though we train and coach and teach in this work, it's still going to challenge us. I think in some ways, that's the job because it's always going to be a learning opportunity. If we look at it that way, the world is a learning opportunity. We have infinite amount of space to grow and develop individually and collectively.
NE - Even the fact that you can sit here and say that it's a learning opportunity that we're gonna continue to get tripped up, as much of this work as you've done, and you do every day, the ability for you or I to notice ourselves and say, ‘we are going to get tripped up’. Permission to fail to everyone out there. So, holding on so tightly to being right or holding on so tightly to pleasing. Now loosen the reins a bit, get on the balcony, and look back at yourself.
KC - So maybe we should say permission to fail to everyone out there.
NE - And ask the question or the questions - what's going on here?
KC – Well it makes me think about the idea of right relationship and how that's always evolving. There's no set definition about what that means and what that looks like. It's a constant inquiry, and in many ways a meditation because we have to keep checking in with ourselves and where we are and what's going on. It keeps us on our toes.
NE - Who's our worst critic – ourselves. What's our relationship like with ourselves? Start there and I think our relationship with others and our environment and the world around us will improve. And that's the most difficult work, the relationship with oneself, and it's constant. Permission to fail. I love that, thank you. Permission to fail and recover.
KC - and recover, yes. Thank you so much for this fascinating conversation, Neil, I've loved it and I'm certainly gonna go and step on the balcony view and have a look at some of those positive parts of me that might help me in some of those not so positive moments in my life.
NE - Yeah, thank you for having me. We can use ourselves as resources for ourselves more often than we think.
Yes, I love that. That's the mantra today, I think. Take care Neil.
[Music outro begins 32:17]
KC - A huge thanks to Neil for that fascinating discussion. Here are my key takeaways. We don't show up in the same way all the time. There are many parts to who we are and there are parts of us that are positive, or more resonant ways of being, and parts of us that are more negative, or dissonant ways of being. The term positive aspect refers to positive ways of being in relationships. Positive aspects help us to create from whatever is emerging. They help us to be more conscious, creative and capable, particularly when there is conflict in the relationship system. When a negative aspect of self shows up, the best leaders reflect. In reflective practice we must ask ourselves: what was that like? What was I feeling? What did I notice? How did I respond? And where do I go from here? Relationship work is also personal work. In order to live and lead with social intelligence and relationship systems intelligence, we must first look in the mirror in order to continue to build our relationship with ourselves. Allow yourself the freedom to fail. That is a part of being human. When we are systems inspired, we take the time to reflect and recover from these moments. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. CRR Global’s unshakeable belief is that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. For more information please visit CRRGlobal.com.
[Music outro 34:22 – end]