Ep.1 Crossing edges and Returning to the Office

To kick-start a brand new season of the Relationship Matters Podcast, Katie Churchman talks with Sandra Cain (Director of Curriculum and Senior Faculty at CRR Global) about crossing edges around returning to the office. 

After over a year of lock-down and remote working, many organizations are now contemplating a return to the office. However, there’s no clear road map for navigating this change and business leaders are finding that the challenges are much more complicated than originally thought. Looking through a systems lens, Sandra considers the opportunities for relationship as we cross edges and create new ways of working together during this transition into another new normal with regards to company culture, work-life balance and clear and courageous communication.

Sandra Cain coaches individuals, pairs and teams around the world. Her background includes 15 years of experience at American Express with a variety of leadership and personal development roles. In addition to leading the CRR Global Core Curriculum, she is also Associate Director of the Certification Program and on faculty for The Coaches Training Institute. Her stand for this work is that since we’re already in relationships, we might as well be conscious and intentional about who we are, what we do and how we live.


For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

 We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Relationship Matters Season 3 Episode 1

Key

Katie Churchman – KC 

Sandra Cain – SC 

Intro [00:00 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to season three of the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. To kick start the season I’m talking with Sandra Cain, director of curriculum and senior faculty at CRR Global about crossing edges and returning to the office. Sandra Cain coaches’ individuals, pairs and teams around the world. Her background includes 15 years’ experience at American Express with a variety of leadership and personal development roles. She bridges that experience with her current passion for building relationships, increasing positivity and developing communication skills in service of creating and navigating change in the workplace. In addition to leading the CRR Global core curriculum, she’s also Associate Director of the Certification Program and on the faculty for the Coaches Training Institute. Her stand for this work is that since we’re already in relationships, we might as well be conscious and intentional about who we are, what we do and how we live. In this episode I’m talking with Sandra about crossing edges and returning to the office. After over a year of lockdown and remote working, many organizations are now contemplating a return to the office. However, there’s no clear roadmap for navigating this change and business leaders are finding challenges much more complicated than originally thought. Looking through a systems lens, Sandra considers the opportunities for relationship as we cross edges and create new ways of working together during this transition into a new normal with regards to company culture, work-life balance and clear and courageous communication. So, without further ado I bring you the brilliant Sandra Cane. 

Well, Sandra, I’m so pleased that we finally got you on the Relationship Matters podcast. Welcome to the show! 

SC – Thank you, I’m happy to be here. 

KC – So, before we dive into our topic today, I’d love to find out a bit more about your why behind this work, what’s got you into the world of ORSC and these wonderful tools? 

SC – Yeah, I think initially it was just my curiosity. I was pretty early in the ORSC years, you know when this was first starting. But once I got into it, what really has my attention is my fascination with the dynamics between people. There’s just no end to the mystery and the weirdness and the interesting aspect of how two people are together, how a group can be together, I just think it’s fascinating to watch the dynamics between people. And even within myself. Who I am with you is different to who I am with someone else, and you know, what brings out that part of me versus a different part of me? I just think it’s… there’s no end to the kind of fascination about who people are together. 

KC – Ah, well I can see why we chose the topic we’re talking about today because crossing edges and returning to the office, I’m sure many different parts of us show up in our home office compared to when we’re in the physical office with our colleagues. 

SC – Absolutely. And for a lot of people, it’s been great and for other people and it’s been really challenging and probably it’s been great and challenging for everybody at one point or another. You know, we’ve been through lots of different experiences in this last chapter during the pandemic. 

KC – Yeah, so we’re talking about this idea of crossing edges today. I wonder if you can talk to our listeners a bit about what crossing edges means to you. 

SC – Yeah, it’s really, it comes from Mandel’s work, really this idea that we’re always aware and doing something or we’re always aware and not doing something else. And we cross edges all the time. From the really simple I went and brushed my teeth this morning and I crossed an edge to go do that because I was out for a walk, all those things we do we cross an edge between one thing and another. And most of the time we don’t even notice, they’re simple, they’re really small, they’re unconscious. What we tend to notice are the bigger changes where we go wow, I feel a little edgier, I’m a little uncomfortable, I feel like I’m at an edge. We use that language in English. So, it’s really that how do we integrate change and that’s crossing a big edge for most people. 

KC – And so, is the reason we find edges so challenging because we’re not great with change as human beings, we don’t love change often? 

SC – You know, a lot of people say they love change. Like I’m one of those people who say I love change, but I don’t love every change, you know, I don’t love every change. We tend to like the changes we chose; we don’t like the changes we don’t chose. And even the ones we do chose sometimes are, you know, have more complexity than we realize. But I do think it’s human behavior. We do tend to get comfortable, and we don’t, if we’re not thriving, even if we’re not loving everything about how it is we get used to it. And there’s just an adaptation that people make. So, when we’re asked to change and cross an edge into something new like going back to an office, for example, big edge for a lot of people. It just naturally brings up a lot of emotion around… some people excitement, some people fear and everything in the middle 

KC – Yeah, it’s interesting when we think about the last 18 months because we crossed an edge into the new normal. Now that new normal has become normal and now we’re crossing another edge, or maybe back towards the old way, and so how do we help our clients through these edges that have been, I guess, there’s been a lot of them lately. Unexpectedly. 

SC – Yeah. I think there always are a lot of them. These are a little bit more global, in our experience, we’re sort of the collective big chapter changes that have been happening around the pandemic. There’s so many, you know. And like you said, going back, I don’t think we ever really go back. Because there’s always, we’re changed at a minimum. Each of us, individually, is different from this experience. And going back to the office or going back to work in a traditional way is going to be different, we’re not going back to the way it was. We’re going back to some new way. And I think a lot of organizations don’t fully know what that is yet, there’s a lot of experimenting about hybrid models and how much do we expect of people, what is it going to look like, what if people don’t come back, what do we do? There’s really good organizations who are being thoughtful about that and I think some are probably panicked a little about how we do this. But there’s some basic things that will really help if people are paying attention to change theory and what we know actually helps people. 

KC – Such a good point around we don’t go back and I guess some people are trying to force that through – 

SC – Right. 

KC – Let’s just go back to how it was now, let’s forget everything we learnt. And that is going to be jarring after 18 months of building a new way of working and creating different kinds of balance in our lives. 

SC – Yeah. I don’t think it’s possible. I really don’t think it’s; I mean, it might be possible on an ORG chart. It might be possible; it’ll look like on paper that it’s back but people are shifted and changed from this. Organizations and customers, you know, everyone is affected by this and it’s gonna take time to really integrate that. We won’t fully know until we have some distance, and we can look back. We have some of that distance from when it started, and we can reflect there but I think about our principles in this work and there’s this constant sense of emergence, we need to find a way to co-create with that and to let it emerge because if we push back to the old way it doesn’t work. It goes against the natural tendency that systems have to grow and emerge. 

KC – The image of swimming upstream came to mind. 

SC – Yeah, exactly. And there may be a bunch of people swimming upstream, that doesn’t make it any more efficient, it just makes it more people doing the same thing and not getting anywhere. 

KC – Yeah. So, how can leaders with these challenging situations right now, with regard to shifting people back to the office, ease that transition. 

SC – Well, again, it’s simple change theory. It’s the basics of really getting input from people in whatever way they can and that’s different now too. It’s probably, maybe it was easier in some ways before, maybe it’s easier now to get input. But, to hear from the people affected. What’s going on for them? What’s in it for them? What would work for them? Giving them some point and that could be surveys, polls, it could be interviews, it could be group discussions, but to somehow ask people that are going back to the office what do they want and what would work. And of course, organization leaders have to have some flexibility about that because if you ask for input and you don’t honor any of it then you create a huge trust issue. So, it’s like, don’t ask for input you’re not willing to ask on at least in some way. Ask them information about what’s going on. Again, not complicated but easy to not do well. What’s happening when, who’s affected, how does that impact people from the consensus reality tactical stuff? And also, that sense of purpose. What’s in it for us? What’s compelling about coming back? And in some cases you might ask them about it but in some cases you might also tell them what you think it is and kind of have a blend of both of those. But those really are the simple kind of the change theory approaches that are really easy to bypass and, you know, let’s just do this and make it happen, we’re going to go back to the old way! Well, good luck! You know, this is the big, and it’s the nice kind of Segway into myth change because this new chapter requires also honoring this chapter we’re in now. We can’t step over the fact, I mean at this level, we cannot step over the fact that this has been a significant change in work philosophy, in work protocol, for so many people. To honor the emotional experience of that, however you can, and that doesn’t mean everyone has to have one-on-one with the boss and cry. It’s like, you know, but just to find ways for people to have to honor their experience and their fear and their anxiety and their excitement, maybe, about coming back. But to include that emotion because if we just do the change at the consensus reality level, it’s not going to stick. 

KC – You’re making me think about the different change styles that might emerge as we go further into this process because I’m someone who loves to jump in the deep end but that isn’t everyone. So, how can we work with those different types of people? 

SC – Well, there’s people who want to leap, like you. And even leapers it depends on the context, there might be some places you leap and there might be some places you say ah, I’m not sure. And then there’s people who are kind of wait and see. And there are people who want to connect people to the idea and there are people who absolutely say nope, not for me. You know, people who are in that more resistor phase. And there’s different language for these roles that exists in change. But the leapers, you really want to harness the energy and the power of them because they often bring people with just because of their energy and enthusiasm. Some people who might have been on the edge, you know, not sure, we’re not sure, well, if Katie’s in! Oh well it’ll be great to see Katie, maybe it can be that simple. But to honor the different experiences, I think, is key. To find the different ways to do that and give people the space to talk about it and feel heard. And that’s tricky sometimes to do, especially at some of these bigger organizations, how do you do that in a way that people can feel heard. And again, they don’t have to all be heard by each other but there are different ways to do that so that someone hears what people’s concerns are. Again, there is a kind of dreaming, emotional experience around it. The fears, maybe the excitement, but that kind of goes together. 

KC – Yeah. Because I’m wondering, with regards to being heard, what do we do with organizations where there are just non-negotiables? You are coming back to the office, you have this kind of job and we’re not budging on that. Someone’s voice is saying well I can’t do that or I don’t want to do that anymore, how do we navigate that kind of challenge. 

SC – Yeah. I think that’s fair. I mean, in some cases they will make that decision and it will be a hard line. I guess, I would look to where’s the place they do have some wiggle room? If that’s the decision, then that’s the decision but where are they open to influence? Where can you hear different voices, where other people can have some sway in how it might look for them or how it might work. Because I mean 100%. You can’t get input on every decision that’s made, I mean that’s tedious. And frankly, people don’t wanna give that much input, it’s like too much right? It’s like just tell me. Sometimes it’s like just tell me. You can get overwhelmed. And, for a variety of reasons, they just have to make decisions. I guess, like I said, I’d just continue to look for where can you… where can the organization really open to influence? What part of it? If we’re for sure going back, you know, is there some wiggle room around one day a week, some people can work from home, or a few days a month or whatever makes sense given the context of the work and the situation. But to me, a black and white decision making doesn’t… it’s not very ORSC-y, let’s just say that! And not even that but it’s not honoring the people and the people, ultimately, are what make up an organization and organizations that forget usually learn pretty quick, that can bite you in the back pretty fast. 

KC – That term open to influence, I’ve heard it used a lot with couples and those more intimate relationships but I’ve not head it in more of an organizational sense. So, what does that look like when an organization and its employees are open to influence? 

SC – Well it’s… I think the context we’re talking about here is open to influence around change. One of the fastest ways to destroy trust, I think, is when you ask for input and you don’t use it. You’re not, your kind of checking the box so to speak. But to be thoughtful about where are we open? Where do we really want input? Where we’re not just doing that because we think it’s the right thing to do – that can be tricky, and it just requires some thought and some planning. I think this is a place where some organizations are really strong and some aren’t, you know, they want to pivot quickly and they want to instigate change quickly which you can do but it requires, for really sustainable change that engages the staff and the employees, it takes more time than really most people want and myself included. I mean, I like when things move fast, I love that, I find it satisfying and I love getting things done. I’m someone who writes things on my to-do list that I already did so I can tick them off, you know, I get that! It’s a real looking here to pause and be thoughtful, where you can. 

KC – I’m noticing a trend in organizations where they’re sort of wanting to look like they’re playing this part, this role, but not actually willing to do the hard work. So, I heard about an organization recently who are organizing a courageous conversation, but they rehearsed the courageous conversation five times before the courageous conversation, to make sure it’s the right conversation. And it just makes it think it’s the guise of oh, aren’t we this kind of organization, but it’s as you said before, that is going to erode trust when it becomes apparent that it’s not really that courageous at all and it’s not an open conversation. 

SC – Yeah, and it’s kind of scripted in that way, right? And I understand that different people have different styles around that and might want to be thinking ahead a little bit, sure, but if you’re playing a role that is where we want to look good it might work for a little while but eventually it will catch up. Even if people stay, here’s the thing, even if people stay the inside conversations that start to happen are like oh, here we go again. Here’s one of those air quotes courageous conversations. You know that little gossip that starts to happen between people. That starts to erode into the culture because there’s no place for them to take it that feels safe or that people care. And it’s so much easier to just have a chat with a friend about it and make jokes, you know, that’s how people get power. That little bit of feeling like if you’re not going to list to what we say I’m going to find a way to make my voice heard and it’s probably going to be not very skillful, truthfully. And my hands raised, I’m that person. Anyone can fall into that. Again, it’s a systemic thing. It’s kind of fun! You know, that kind of gossip is satisfying and to find an ally that you can have that with. But it does erode, it erodes trust and it erodes safety and there’s just a different kind of culture that gets created. And when the leaders are a little checked out they may not even know that’s happening. 

KC – Yeah. I’m wondering what the opportunities might be around this return to the office that maybe we’re not even seeing yet, because I’ve noticed that when one change happens sometimes, we create loads of change. Like when I moved to America, I got married, moved to America and cut my hair so it’s like it’s all going to happen all at once. And I also changed my surname, so it was just like suddenly all the change. And I’m wondering if we can use this time in that same way, positively. 

SC – I think you’re a change junkie, Katie. You’ve just made that clear, yeah. But no, sometimes it happens like that. When there’s a lot of energy around it, you want to do it all kinds of things like yeah, I’ll do this and this and this. And then you kind of get rattled like woah, too much too fast. The fire hose, a little bit too much in my face right now. Yeah. I think there are opportunities. I actually think one of the opportunities, you know, not surprising, is on the relationship side. I hope that one of the big lessons from this time has been about valuing relationship. And relationships have changed. Our ability to easily be with people has really changed in the last 18 months, right? And I think most of what people say they miss is their people! But now things have opened up now and people can hug, people are vaccinated, they have a little more that they can do. But, the real opportunity here is not ORG chart, it’s the relationship. How do you navigate this change through relationship? How do you hold a relationship first whilst you navigate this change? And it’s a big ask but it’s a huge opportunity and if it gets missed or stepped over, I think there’s a huge potential that’s not there, that’s not tapped. Because people want to feel valued, they want to feel heard. They are probably scared, anxious, nervous, excited. All the emotions on the emotions chart you can probably say are true here. So, that’s one way to honor relationship, to honor the emotional aspect. What we would call dreaming, the high dreams, the low dreams, what are we excited about, what are we nervous about? How do you include that in the change? How do you actually honor people’s experience and in a lot of companies they don’t talk about emotions? I mean, a lot of us, we’re brought up not talking about that. So, I’m not saying that you’ve got to have a Kumbaya crying space, you know, because I know some people will say well then you go to the extreme – no, there’s a whole middle bit of just normalizing people’s experience, normalizing their emotions, giving them a chance to talk about what’s going on. I mean, one of the most powerful client engagements was a merger, an acquisition, well it depends on who you asked, it was either a merger or an acquisition which is often the case. And they rearranged everything and the ORG chart, they hadn’t done the people work because they’re an office organization, they don’t know how to do that, brought us in after the fact. And we just spent time talking about the old way, what are they going to miss, what did they love about it? And it was kind of edgy because it was two companies talking about the good old days separately. But they actually could hear each other and it really stands out to me as one of the most powerful experiences I had. This was probably, this was well over 100 people in a room and we just had them talk at their tables and then we just had them report how it was to do that. And you could feel the emotional feel of just exhale, relief, normal. And we didn’t, we didn’t solve any of the emotions, we didn’t fix any of that, we just gave them space to talk about it with each other and it, yeah, it’s fun just to think about it. And the whole rest of the work we did with them was just shifted, they could start to see each other as people again and not problems or obstacles and it just was a real pivotal thing. So, I do think that’s the big opportunity here, is to just honor the emotional experience of this, the inner relationship. 

KC – It’s so simple. You don’t even need to be an ORSC coach to ask so what are you going to miss about working from home? And then allow that to happen, that ventilation, and then ok, this is where we are, what are we going to build from here. And I think people probably don’t feel heard in their grieving, perhaps. And so just allowing space for that, wow, what an exhalation as you say. 

SC – Yeah. Just allowing some space for that and, again, even for them to hear each other a bit, that’s the power. That’s the power of any change, really, when you think about it, any kind of big changes, what are you gonna miss, what are you gonna acknowledge, honor or in some cases grieve? And in this case it might be grieve because this is a pretty big change, to go from all that people had working from home, for those who loved it, and for those who didn’t. Because I think all the things that got missed is all of these little micro relationship moments. I’m starting to read more and more, people are writing about this, those small bits of relationship that we have with each other when we’re in person that we don’t have virtually. It worked, you know, it works! And a lot of it will still work. But we don’t have the casual encounters. We don’t have the… well some of them are kind of inane. It’s just those micro moments that add up to a history with people that is really different that we just can’t have virtually. 

KC – Yeah. Yeah. 

SC – So, there are opportunities there and that’s a small one, and certainly every culture will define its own but there are new opportunities to take the learning and the experience from that last chapter into this next one. 

KC – Yeah, that’s so true, the water cooler moments. A lot of my clients were saying how they missed those. And also, those signals that we just don’t get on Zoom, however skillful we are. Even if we have our cameras on, obviously a lot of companies don’t, there’s just so many in person signals we don’t get and the energy we can’t feel in the same way. 

SC – Right. And you can’t turn your camera off when you’re in person. 

KC – So true! 

SC – I suppose you could put a mask on but that feels like a pretty far drudge. And that’s fascinating too, when you talk about signals and behaviors and the double signals, I’ve done some organizational work in this last couple of years and some people are on camera, some people are not with no explanation! Even if I say hey, I’d love to have your camera on unless you have noise, or something, and they just don’t. And they don’t have to explain because nobody requires… it’s just interesting to come from my lens and go into organizational work and that’s just normal for them. So, I meet them where they are, but boy do I get curious about those double signals. How was that for them over time? There’s a lot of opportunity when you really start to look at them, you know, what’s been happening and what will happen as we go back into the office? It’s an interesting chapter. 

KC – That’s so true, we can’t just turn our camera off when we’re in person and we’ve come to allow it, I think. And there’s certain things with Zoom and virtual communication, I notice sometimes like chats going when we’re having a discussion and you just wouldn’t necessarily do that in person, it’d be rude to get out your phone and text. 

SC – That’s the equivalent of actually writing a note and handing somebody, handing it to everybody, whilst you’re in a meeting! And that doesn’t happen, that’s preposterous. And we’ve just made that OK. And I don’t think, I mean I’m no brain scientist, but I don’t know how our brains can track all of that. You know, leading courses virtually or doing some coaching I prefer people not use chat but of course they will because I can’t track it all. Humans cannot track all that well. We can track it but we can’t track all that well. It’s too much. It’s too much information all at one time. 

KC – Yeah, and I think research has shown we can’t actually multitask, we just switch between tasks really fast. 

SC –Right, and we think we’re great multitaskers. And when, you know, some people maybe are, but we do miss something. We do miss something. So, it’s a very interesting chapter to come back out of this into what’s next. And I think that the, like I said, the companies that are going to do this well are the ones that are thoughtful about how to do it and they’re open to influence from their employees and their staff, that they’re good about communicating what, where, when, how. I had when in their twice because that’s doubly important in that I guess. But, you know, all those kind of basic things are just easy to rush through, to, you know, the companies that are thoughtful and plot out their plan around this using what we’d call change theory or some version of that, I think they’re going to have the best success, the best retention and probably the best engagement and satisfaction from their staff and employees. 

KC – I wonder what the long-term ripple effect is going to be of this moment in time, of how they navigate this and what that looks like? 

SC – Yeah. What do you think when you dream into that? What do you think is the long-term effect? I’m curious too, I don’t know. 

KC – I think people crave more balance around work and life and I don’t think compensation in terms of money is going to be enough for a lot of people going forward. I think they’re going to expect other benefits too. 

SC – Yeah. I think that the division between work and life is, I’m curious how that unfolds coming out of this. There’s going to be, there has been a challenge for lots of people. How do you navigate, take the learning from this chapter into the next one? What really matters to me, how can I fully be present at work, how can I fully be present with my people? You know, and in the rest of my life? I don’t know, I think that Zoom has taught us, we were talking about multitasking, it’s divided our brains a bit. In an interesting way. And you know, how do we, what do we learn from that and bring into the next chapter that’s actually useful, that we want, versus what becomes habit. And that’s where we really get into conscious and intentional versus unconscious and unintentional. 

KC – Maybe we’ll become much more conscious and intentional human beings when we’re back in person. 

SC – I hope so and I think so. I think more and more people are aware of how this has shifted things for them and what really matters. Where to put their energy, where to put their attention. And some of that learning comes from when we don’t know even in this chapter. So, humans by nature are, humans and systems are naturally intelligent, generative and creative, and so there is a place, we think about what will make this successful as well when we have organizations that really trust that principle as well, that can lean into that and not hold too tightly to any one approach, that’s the thing. I think it gets sticky when we start to make decisions, say this is how it is. People don’t fit into that very well, we’re a little more complicated than that unfortunately. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could just flip a switch? It’s just not how people are wired so we have to trust the emergence piece and the natural intelligence of people and systems. And work with that instead of against it. 

KC – And definitely the two hardest principles, at least for me, to hold. Some systems do not seem intelligent right now! But let’s wait to see what emerges. 

SC – Well, intelligent doesn’t have to be smart. 

KC – Ok! 

SC – Maybe put a little softer definition around that. Because they’re definitely generative, they’re generating something. Again, doesn’t have to be something we like or we think is good but they’re always generating something! And creating, for sure, creativity comes with that. But, yeah, that’s one of the things I’ve learned from that principle, it’s like oh yeah, generative doesn’t mean necessarily they’re generating something I like or want, but they are generating something. Interesting. So, can I hold soft focus on that and try and use that principal and see what emerges from it? 

KC – Yeah, it doesn’t necessarily have to be my view of what’s intelligent, also. 

SC – Right! Yeah. In fact, on a good day it’s not and it’s even better. It’s even better than what I could have imagined. 

KC – Well, thank you so much Sandra, this was a real lesson and I’ve learnt a ton. We’re going to have to get you back on the show, there are so many topics here I want to deep dive into. 

SC – Great. I’d love to. Let’s do it. 

KC – Thank you again. 

[Music outro begins 29:34] 

KC – Thanks to Sandra Cain for that incredibly relevant conversation on edge crossing and returning to the office. My key takeaways are as follows. We can never really go back to how things were because we’re changed at a minimum. Each of us, individually, is different because of our experiences. We will have shifted and changed. The three change theory approaches that so often get bypassed center around input, information and purpose. Input – ask the people who are going back to the office for their input. That said, don’t ask for input that you’re not willing to act on. Information – give them access to information. What, when, who… the logistics and communication around the change. Purpose – create a purpose. What’s compelling about coming back? Crossing big edges and going back to the office after working at home for 18 months can bring up a lot of emotions for people ranging from excitement to fear. If we can help people to honor and acknowledge the different experiences coming up we can ease the edges they may have to cross. The real opportunity is not the ORG chart but the relationship. How do you navigate this change through the lens of relationship? How do you hold relationship first whilst you navigate this change? There’s a huge opportunity for us to value relationships differently. If it gets missed or stepped over so much potential will be left untapped. I’m excited to announce Sandra will be back on the show in season three with another episode. In the meantime, to find out more about Sandra’s work do check out CRRGlobal.com. For over 18 years CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of change makers around the world. Supported by a global network of faculty and partners, we connect, inspire and equip change agents to shift systems one relationship at a time. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature to the larger whole. 

[Outro 32:01 – End]