Ep.5 Coaching Competencies: Holding the system as client

In this episode, Master Coach Maddie Weinreich delves into two of the coaching competencies she sees new systems coaches’ struggling with the most: holding the system as the client and holding the system as intelligent, generative, and creative. Over the course of the episode, Maddie discusses tips, traps and tricks to using these competencies, what it means to ‘hold the system’ as a client, some of the benefits of working with our clients in this way and empowering the system by holding them as inherently intelligent, generative and creative.

Maddie Weinreich specializes in strengthening the interpersonal relationships that exist within business environments for the purpose of enhancing team performance and productivity.  She coaches leadership teams around the globe to navigate change and to effectively improve organizational cultures within large and small businesses. Maddie currently serves as a senior Front of the Room Leader for the ORSC Program and ORSC Certification.  Maddie holds the Master Certified Coach (MCC) credential with the International Coaches Federation (ICF). She is a Certified Organization and Relationship Systems Coach (ORSCC), a Certified Team Performance Coach (CTPC), and a Certified Professional Co-Active Coach (CPCC).  Maddie also provides mentoring services and consultation for professionals working in the field of relationship growth and development.


For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

 We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Relationship Matters Season 3 Episode 5

Key 

Katie Churchman – KC 

Maddie Weinreich – MW 

[Intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. In this episode I’m delighted to be welcoming back Maddie Weinreich onto the show. As well as being the past director of faculty and leader development at CRR Global, Maddie currently serves as a senior front of the room leader for the ORSC program and ORSC certification. In this episode Maddie is deep diving into two of the coaching competencies she sees new systems coaches struggling with the most – holding the system as the client and holding the system as intelligent, generative and creative. Over the course of the episode we discuss tips, traps and tricks to use these competencies, what it means to hold the system as a client, some of the benefits of working with our clients in this way and finally, empowering the system by holding it as inherently intelligent, generative and creative. So without further ado I give you the wonderful Maddie Weinreich. 

KC – Maddie! It’s an absolute delight to have you back on the Relationship Matters podcast, season three! 

MW – I’m so excited to be here, Katie, and really excited about the topic we’re bringing today. 

KC – Yeah, I’m really happy we’re talking about these two coaching competencies in particular because I think they’re the competencies that people struggle with the most. There’s two pieces there, holding the system as a client and holding the system as an intelligent, generative and creative thing. 

MW – Well, I wanted to hone in on them, you know we have four corner stones, five principals and 10 ORSC competencies and the ORSC competencies provide the guidelines for practicing ORSC coaching, so this is when you’re actually doing the coaching. And so I thought it might be fun to share with some of our listeners and focusing on these two competencies, holding the system as a client and holding the system intelligent, generative and creative, because as you said, it’s a place where all ORSC coaches can struggle and have challenges, but particularly newer or younger ORSC coaches. So, I thought it’d be fun to kind of dive in and talk about these two. 

KC – Yeah. And they’re very complimentary as with the titles. So, before we sort of merge them together I’m wondering if we start by discussing what does it mean to even hold the system as a client? 

MW – It’s what relationship systems coaching is all about, that’s what makes us different from individual coaching! So each relationship has its own unique identity, you know, that’s one of our principles. But each relationship has its own characteristics, its own flavor, its own personality. And so when we’re coaching we want to interact with the system, focus on the system with a softer focus on the individuals. So if we think of a relationship and it’s qualities like, if you think of a relationship of somebody you’re close too, what are some of the qualities that show up in that relationship? 

KC – With my husband there’s playfulness, lightness, depth, learning, curiosity. 

MW – Yeah. So that’s how we start to get a sense of who you are together. There’s who you are individually and you both contribute to who you are together and some of those qualities are a way to identify and start to think about the relationship. And notice the difference between the warm close relationship or maybe the distant more friction relationship. One way to start to connect with the relationship is when this pair is together or this team is together, what are some of the qualities that show up? So that’s one way to start to identify and then hold the system as the client. And then other ways are to speak to the whole group rather than the individuals. And so say things like you, your team, your system, your partnership, your marriage. Using those kind of words can help to focus on the system rather than the individuals. 

KC – Yeah, someone was saying to me the other day how when they’re coaching virtually with a couple they’ll look at the line in-between the two zoom screens if they’re in separate locations which I thought brilliant because then you really are coaching that space in-between, quite literally. 

MW – Yeah! And one trap that younger or newer coaches can fall into is something we call ping pong coaching where the coach speaks to one person and then speaks to the other person. Or just sort of has a conversation with one and the other person goes out of sight, they’re not being paid attention too. So that’s, it’s kind of unbalanced. And then we’re doing individual coaching in front of each other which is very different to coaching the system. So some ways around that are if you’re talking to one, to say to the other one so what’s going on for you whilst you hear this one speaking? What do you notice between the two of you when this is happening or when this conversation is happening? So when you have them turn towards each other or have them talk about what it’s like between them you ask what’s the impact on your relationship when this happens? Those are ways to bring the attention back to the system. 

KC – A question on that – when you’ve got a couple who are new to this idea of talking about their relationship as opposed to their individual experience, how do you direct them toward the relationship? Because I sometimes find I slide into those ping pong style as you were just referencing when the client keeps on going there, you may say so what’s happened in your relationship and they’ll go oh, well I’m struggling right now, and we’ve kind of missed the point. So, what would you suggest for that kind of challenge as a coach? 

MW – Yeah, so it’s what do you notice between the two of you when that happens? So, somebody says I’m feeling hurt, ok, so somebody says they’re feeling hurt and then you could say when you hear that one saying they’re hurt what goes on for you? Well, I feel guilty. Yeah so there’s guilty and hurt that’s here in your relationship. What’s it like to have those two things going on between the two of you, hurt and guilt? Kind of put it back over to them. Another way is to also educate them about what we call the third entity so that can be in their language but it’s really the relationship between the two. We can think of it as team spirit. Or, often we give the example of The Beatles, there was George and Paul and John and Ringo and they’re individuals but when they come together they were The Beatles, way back in the day. Each person’s relationship, each pair’s relationship or team or whatever group you’re working with, they have their own relationship and sometimes if you refer to it as the team or the team spirit or your marriage or the couple or your work relationship they start to get the idea of it. And then when you take them through the third entity exercise, that’s a really good way to educate them about that this relationship has a personality, has a life, needs some attention. Needs to be brought to the surface a little bit more. I did work with a pair recently, they were just, one of them was just like I’ve never heard of this, I’ve never thought of it this way but you’re right, our relationship is pretty special and it’s been around for a long time and I think we haven’t really given it the attention that it’s due. And then once they got a sense of that they started feeling a little differently about it, how can we care for our relationship? How can we tend to our relationship? What does our relationship need? All of a sudden they start asking different kinds of questions than what you’re doing to me that’s bothering me and what I’m doing to you that’s bothering you. It’s like well what’s happening in our relationship? What’s happening between the two of us? And how are we each contributing to that? 

KC – So what’s the benefits of them being able to hold, well, us being able to hold their relationship and then helping them to hold their relationship in this way? 

MW – Well, one of the big pieces I think is it creates a sense of ‘we’. So there’s a benefit of holding them as a system is oh it’s us, there’s an us. We’re not siloed individuals, we’re actually interdependent, we actually need each other. We actually can support and help each other. So, I think it starts to create that sense of ‘we’. And when we’re working with teams and with couples, either way, it can start to create a sense of shared ownership or leadership or responsibility. So if we design an alliance with its system we start to say so what kind of atmosphere do you want among you? Or between you? We’re not included in that because we’re the coach, we’re holding the space for that to happen, but we’re giving them permission to be conscious and intentional about how they want to be together. Which, and people are like how do you mean how do we want to be together? So, yeah, you have a choice! You can be intentional! You can chose the how of how you be together. And so they start to think of well, what are qualities, what is the atmosphere we want to have? And we design an alliance, we say how do you want to be together when things don’t go well? When things are difficult, when things get complicated or feelings get hurt or you feel ignored, how do you want to be together? And they’re like, they have to think about it! And that’s good because that helps them start to learn to be conscious and intentional about the how of their being. And then at the end of designing the alliance we ask what can you each be counted on for? So they realize they’re designing an agreement or an alignment and designing an atmosphere that they wanna have, but it isn’t up to anyone else to make that happen, it’s really up to them. So that starts to share with them or indicate them or teach them, train them, educate them either one, about they are co-responsible for that atmosphere, for what it is, how they want to be together in coaching. So I think those are the benefits, it creates a sense of we, it creates a sense of shared leadership, shared ownership and shared responsibility for outcomes. 

KC – Yeah, that shared accountability piece feels really strong actually when we coach in this way because suddenly they have a say in how they wanna be, it’s not just how they are, it’s not beyond their control and I think we do spend a lot of our lives just thinking well this is how we are together, this is just how it is. And suddenly I think that sort of lightbulb moment, it’s probably in equal parts terrifying and exciting because it’s like oh wow, now I can potentially do something about it if I want to! 

MW – Yeah. I love what you’re saying there, you have a choice about how you’re being. That’s where people can chose. That’s where we have a locus of control, how am I contributing? How am I being? How do I show up? What’s the impact, what am I creating or co-creating in this relationship? So, it’s pretty interesting! So as systems coaches we’re not looking so much at who’s doing what to who but we’re listening more - what’s trying to happen in this system, what’s trying to emerge in that system? So our focus is just a little bit different than it is when we’re doing individual work. 

KC – Yeah, and would you say, in order to hold that focus we have to already be holding that second competency, that we see the systems as intelligent, generative and creative. 

MW – Yes. That’s tricky because when we’re holding them intelligent, generative and creative we want the agenda to come from the system. We want the answers to come from the system and we have to trust that that will happen, and that’s where that other competency comes in of holding them intelligent, generative and creative. Because, look, a lot of us want to fix things. A lot of folks who come to ORSC are already consultants and they’re paid the big bucks to solve the problem, to give the answer. To have the final say about something. And then we come to ORSC and we’re actually leaning into the system and trusting that the system has its own answers. And that can be a stretch for a lot of coaches, especially the newer coaches and especially those who are already consultants or therapists even, who come with an answer. 

KC – Yeah, I find this one challenging, particularly when I have clients who say to me things like oh but that’s why we’re here, we’re here to get help and ideas on our relationship. And you’re sort of given this power that actually, really, we should be handing back to them - what do you think, what’s going to be useful here?  How do you work around those tricky situations where the client just keeps on handing you the baton to give them the answers, to tell them what to do? 

MW – Yeah. So I might ask is this something that happens in your relationship? Do you often ask others for advice or guidance rather than tapping into what you guys know? And they might say well, yeah, I don’t know or, like you said, this is the way it is. Well this is the way it is but where do you have some choices around that? What do you think? What could be possible? And I might say if you made it up or if you imagined or what would be your best hope for this? You know, we use high dream and low dream, what concerns do you have about answering this question yourself? Why are you looking outside your relationship for these answers? Those might be some ways to start to turn it back to them. 

KC – That’s interesting. 

MW – But you have to believe in them. You can’t turn it back and then take it away. 

KC – Yeah, so I guess even seeing a pattern of them throwing it to you is itself information you’re hopefully going to reflect back at them and they can do with it what they want? That pattern in itself, I didn’t even think, it’s the system giving information that can be used. 

MW – Yeah, yeah. 

KC – So, I’m wondering what you find most challenging about viewing the system in this way, as intelligent, generative and creative. Particularly after the last few months we’ve had, it’s not the easiest is it? 

MW – Yeah, exactly. So, if there’s… if I think things should go a certain way in their relationship, if I think, I have an opinion about something, they’re talking about something, the team is talking about something, a couple’s talking about something and I start to think well, I know what they should do, you know there’s that little bubble that comes up in my head and to quiet that voice and to go to curiosity, well how would they handle this? What do they think? What’s their answer? Because a lot of time they come up with things I wouldn’t have thought of. So it’s way beyond what I could think, so I realize that my, what I might want for them or what I might think is the right way, the best way or the most efficient way, I might think that but I started to open up to think how might they handle this or what’s another way to do that, so my curiosity and intrigue leaves me listening better and being more curious. 

KC – That’s great. And I think also, to add to that, being OK with it going slightly off tangent or the tool not working out or perhaps going to slightly negative places because actually that can be where they learn the most. I remember this one session, the tool didn’t work and they started arguing and I just thought what an awful session, they came back and two weeks later they’d had such a lightbulb moment for their relationship. And so that wasn’t really for me to say what was good and what’s bad, it was useful for them. 

MW – Yeah. You know Katie you’re pointing to something I think’s really important, is sometimes things are going to go south. More often than not so as a systems coach it’s better to get comfortable with the discomfort and so it’s not always gonna be tied up in a bow at the end, it’s not gonna be like that. And so going into those uncharted territories, going into those difficult dark places, going into darker emotions or feelings can be challenging for a systems coach. And you have to let it go there, we have to let the system go there, we have to trust that that’s where they need to go and that’s what’s happening. You could leave a session, a coaching session, and the team is at odds with each other or there’s a couple who’ve said some things and they’re upset with each other. So it’s good to safe port them, given where you are when you’re at the end of a session, it’s good to safe port them and say given where you are what do you each need to do and maybe they make some agreements, maybe they continue the conversation till their next coaching session or whatever it is that they need to do and so they’re safe ported. But, just like you said, you have to trust that that’s where the system needs to go and you don’t know, like you said, you come back that next week and you’ve thought, ah, I could have been fired! I’m like oh I’m sure they’re done with me! And then they come back and they’re like oh we had such and such happen and this came out of it. So, you don’t know where it’s going to go, you have to trust that the system has its own intelligence and if it’s in a dark place, negative place, then that’s where it needs to be. Because relationships have different life spans. Sometimes the relationship is actually meant to end or to split or to change or transform. And they’re actually coming to us, the systems coaches, so that that can happen. So sometimes that’s happening for a reason when they’re in front of us.

KC – You’ve just made me think about the fact that our biases around what is intelligent, generative and creative, we have to be aware of those because it’s not really good or bad, positive or negative because what we think is intelligent may be completely different from what the client thinks. 

MW – Exactly, so that’s important to ask in your system. What’s considered, ask them, in your relationship what’s important here? In your relationship what matters? In your relationship how do you deal with difficulties? Most systems don’t have a conflict protocol. Most teams I work with, most couples, haven’t had a conversation about how do we want to be together if things don’t go well? They haven’t had that so it’s new for them. So to actually have that conversation and plan around it, as the coach you could remind them - hey these are the agreements that you made. And sometimes those agreements fall apart because there’s some conflict that’s bigger than they knew was going to happen. So, you have to just stay. That I think is the tip for the systems coaches – just stay, listen, be present, reveal the system to itself, that’s another competency, but really to trust that the system will even in breakdown, even if it’s ending, that that’s all natural parts of the relationship systems life, lifestyle, life form. 

KC – I’m wondering, apart from perhaps our biases around what is intelligent, generative and creative and perhaps having hidden agendas ourselves, what else gets in the way of coaching from this stance? 

MW – I think, having opinions, finding them wrong, being judgmental, all of those things. Stepping over something that’s difficult. Sometimes I’ll hear a coach kind of trying to make it nice in their coaching and try to put it together. I was on a call today and someone was talking about, there was some breathing they were doing about a change that was going on in their system and one person said I’m really sad about this and the other person tried to cheerlead them, don’t worry, we’ve got ways to fix it! So, those people who are fixers will have challenges. Those people who just want to repair things and make them better so that it can be happy again, those people are going to be challenged as coaches, they’re going to have to stretch more to really trust that the system quote ‘knows what it’s doing’. 

KC – Hmmm. Yeah, I think that happy bias is definitely an edge for me because I think we all want to be happy to a certain degree but we do have arguably toxic positivity sometimes going on, probably in our coaching practices but also in our cultures perhaps and organizations around one type of communication being ok. 

MW – Yeah, yes. I’ve heard it be referred to as curios compliance. I thought that was such a good term, because people do make nice and as the coach we want to ask, part of this competency is also asking what’s not being said? What’s not being talked about? What’s the elephant in the room? What’s the gossip? Those are the questions that we ask when we’re on that competency, when we’re asking about being curios and kind of digging a little bit around for what are some of the pain points? What is it that needs to be said? What is it that hasn’t been said? And sometimes you get somebody might say a little something and then you can unfold it, kind of using the secondary sometimes, some of that difficulty, so maybe, sometimes you need to keep meeting the primary, honor how positive they are, acknowledge how positive they are and then you might hear a little something peek over. And, sometimes, we don’t speak up about things. Oh, tell me more about that and then you can start to unfold it or unpack it, help it rise to the surface. As systems coaches we’re looking for what’s real in the system, what wants to happen, what needs to happen for that system. 

KC – So I’m guessing as well then, you just made me think that the intelligence of the system can show up not just in language but perhaps in the body language that they’re using, they might say one thing and it’s really positive and yet they shrug and they’re looking down. And as a coach then is it our job to reflect back that other intelligence too? 

MW – You got it. That’s a good example of a double signal, right. So they might be looking down or shrugging whilst they’re saying everything’s fine. And then you can say hey I noticed that you’re saying everything’s fine but some of the body language looks a little different, can we play with that? And you can even do some unfolding, do some unfolding from intelligence if you want, to see what’s there, what intelligence is there. 

KC – Yeah I just realized, we do have, again, bias around language and that being the main source of intelligence but actually where else is the system being intelligent or the information? 

MW – Right, yeah. Often it’ll come, like you said, through the signals or indications that it’s happening. But we just have to keep going back, as systems coaches, to speaking to the system but also trusting the system, that is has its own answers. And that can be a stretch for many of us or in many times or when there’s a big conflict coming at you, it can be a little bit scary as a systems coach to hold the space for that to happen. 

KC – So, how do you prepare yourself then as a coach going into a tricky situation like you just mentioned, to hold these two competencies in particular. 

MW – Well, I try to, of course I always design an alliance first, that’s the first thing I do, I start to say how do you want to be together? Talk about the you of them. And then I’m gonna ask about, when I’m first working with a system, what are some of the challenges in the system? I’m gonna say what do you do well, what are the strengths in the system? I’m gonna ask about that, sometimes systems are shy about sharing their strengths, right, we really want to access that. So, what are the strengths, what’s living here, what do you do well together? Then I might say so what are some of the challenges? What are some of the difficulties? What are some of the things that aren’t being said? And then I listen and then as they reflect back I might say well, I notice… I reveal the system, I say I notice there’s some hesitancy or I notice you’re only speaking about positive things, I’m curious about that, does that happen on your team? Right, so I’m bringing it back to the system. Does it happen that you don’t talk about the negative things? What’s the impact on your team about not talking about those things? SO those are some of the ways that I might prepare or talk to them about it. And then, look, sometimes as coaches we blow it. We don’t do the competencies or we give an opinion or we find them wrong or we tell them what they should do. Those are natural things that we do as systems coaches. And then afterwards I might reflect on how I worked with that system and I might think oh I don’t think I held that competency so well. So the next time I’ll focus on bring a little more attention to it. 

KC – Mmm. If you catch yourself mid-session with that urge to tell them what to do, what do you do in that moment with that information in yourself? 

MW – So, I let myself have the thoughts or the feelings or the expression of that and then I might check in what’s going over in that system, I might share my thoughts, I might say hey, I’ve got some thoughts about this, are you interested in hearing? So I’d ask permission to share my thoughts. Just to give voice to is so it’s not going on in my head anymore. Those kind of things. So I don’t beat myself up about it or make myself wrong or anything like that. If I’m having some kind of reflection it might be something, some parallel process that belongs to the system, so I’m happy to offer it but not with any intention that it’s true or it’s right or that they should actually do that, I can offer it more as a possibility, something to consider or something for them to bounce off of. So they might say no, not that but this. So that stimulates something else. So I try not to shut this thought down but really to deliver it in a neutral way without any expectation that my way is the right way, which isn’t the way to go. 

KC – That’s great because I think there are those gut instincts in sessions that we sometimes ignore or suppress and there’s information there too. And, as you say, if you hold it lightly, not as this is the way but it’s a thought, it’s something in the system right now, it’s a very different way of presenting that instinct, that impulse. 

MW - Yeah, yeah. Because, you know, our job as systems coaches is to become obsolete. So I wanna leave them better than I found them by them having more sense of empowerment so that they’re making choices. And if I’ve trusted them to make choices then sometimes that’s what they need in order to start trusting themselves. And so, often when I’m hired for a system I will say upfront that my job is to become obsolete, I want to help the system learn how to function and how to work better together so that I don’t need to be here. I could come for a tune up or a tweak or help you out in a situation but basically I want them to learn the tools and skills and relationship connection so they can really lend into each other and lean into the system in order to move forward. 

KC – So, would you say that even when you’re not coaching coaches directly, you’re coaching the individuals or the teams you work with to be systems coaches to a certain extent? 

MW – I would say to have systems awareness. I would say to have systems intelligence and systems awareness so that when there’s conflict on their team they kind of get excited about it. Oh, we have conflict, that means we learned that something new is trying to happen. What’s trying to happen? Let’s put the problem out in front so we together can have a conversation about that, so they can start to have conversations in a different way than they were having before the coaching. So if they’ve done some alignment coaching and they’ve had some experience of alignment out front they can practice that with themselves. There’s the story of Faith and Marita working with a team and they, when they went there, there were bagels on the table and they did alignment coaching by putting the bagel out in front. And then Faith and Marita came back months later to do a follow up and the same bagel was on the table, it was now solidified and stale but what the team did was they put that bagel on the board table when they had an issue that they had to kind of put out front and talk about. So, that’s what I mean about we want to become obsolete as coaches so that the system is doing it on their own. 

KC – That’s brilliant. So, I guess that really talks to the power of embracing both of these competencies then, holding the system as client and holding the system as intelligent, generative and creative. 

MW – Got it. 

KC – Final closing question. What’s the potential of us embracing both of these competencies as coaches? 

MW – When we’re holding these competencies we’re looking at the system, to the system, for the sake of the system so that they can be more productive, more effective, more sustainable, have more fun together. You know, so that they can have a sense of pride in what they do and that they can trust that might not all be pretty but it all makes sense and that they can go through different times together and they can also learn how to recover. And I think that’s really important for systems to not just experience but to really know we can go through rough times, rough waters, we can come out on the other side, we can also go through highs and creative times and that this can open up a lot of creativity in our system if we hold us a system, as a unit, that we’re all a part of, that we all contribute too and we all draw from, and that we have our own answers. And I think once they know that there’s a sense of empowerment that the system has and then the coach can just feel really satisfied, that system is on their own, they can do this. They can move through life. They can move through whatever it is that they’re going through or whatever it is that they’re trying to produce as a system and they can be more effective and more aligned and have fun then they could have had they not had some of these coaching  conversations or gone through some of these coaching exercises. 

KC – Brilliant, it really is the ultimate when it comes to empowerment isn’t it, holding these two competencies. 

MW – Yeah. It’s empowerment for the system and if the coach sees that they’re empowered from empowerment from the coach then cool! That’s what we want as coaches! 

KC – Great, well thank you so much Maddie for this deep dive into these two very important competencies. I’m certainly going to take a lot away from this and take care. 

MW – Alright. Thank you so much Katie. 

[Outro begins 31:50] 

KC – A huge thanks to Maddie Weinreich for that incredibly useful discussion around two of the more challenging coaching competencies, holding the system as the client and holding the system as intelligent, generative and creative. Here are my key takeaways. One way to start holding the system as client and to connect with the relationship is to start thinking about some of the qualities that show up. When this pair or this team is together what are some of the qualities that show up? Speak to the whole group other than the individuals, for example using words like you, your partnership, your team, your marriage can help to focus on the system rather than the individuals. One trap newer coaches can fall into is ping pong coaching, when they coach back and forth between people. One way around this can be to bring the dialogue back to the system. What’s the impact on your relationship when this happens or what do you notice between the two of you when this happens? These are when you bring the attention back to the system. When there is a sense of we with both couples and teams, it can start to create a sense of ownership, leadership and responsibility. One way we can do this is to create an alliance around how they want to be together. They get to choose to be intentional and chose the how in how they want to be in relationship. To learn more about Maddie’s work do check out CRRGlobal.com. For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

[Outro 34:02 – end]