In this episode, Katie talks with CRR Global CEO and co-founder Marita Fridjhon about the competencies behind system inspired leadership. Systems Inspired Leadership (SIL) is an innovative approach to leadership that creates from the wisdom of the system rather than tells people what to do and builds shared leadership at all levels of the organization. Their discussion includes what is and isn’t a systems inspired leader, how to empower leaders and teams to adopt this different approach to leadership, how Systems’ inspired leadership set us up to better navigate the complexity and disruptive forces of the 21st century and stepping into the collective intelligence of the system itself.
Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
In this episode, Katie talks with CRR Global CEO and co-founder Marita Fridjhon about the competencies behind system inspired leadership. Systems Inspired Leadership (SIL) is an innovative approach to leadership that creates from the wisdom of the system rather than tells people what to do and builds shared leadership at all levels of the organization. Their discussion includes what is and isn’t a systems inspired leader, how to empower leaders and teams to adopt this different approach to leadership, how Systems’ inspired leadership set us up to better navigate the complexity and disruptive forces of the 21st century and stepping into the collective intelligence of the system itself.
Marita Fridjhon is co-owner and CEO of CRR Global and mentor to an ever-growing community of practitioners in the field of Relationship Systems work. She designs curriculum and operates training programs in Relationship Systems Work for coaches, executives and teams. She came to this work from an extensive background in Clinical Social Work, Community Development, Process Work, Family Systems Therapy, Business Consulting and Alternative Dispute Resolution. She has an international mentor coaching practice of individuals, partnerships and teams. Her primary focus in coaching is on systemic change, leveraging diversity, creative communication, deep democracy in conflict management and the development of Learning Organizations.
For over 18 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time
We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.
Key
KC – Katie Churchman
MF - Marita Fridjhon
[Intro 00:00 – 00:06]
KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature to the larger whole. In advance of the publication of Systems Inspired Leadership, a new book co-written by Marita Fridjhon and Frank Uit de Weerd I talk to Marita about the being side of systems inspired leadership. Systems Inspired Leadership (SIL) is an innovative approach to leadership that creates from the wisdom of the system rather than tells people what to do and builds shared leadership at all levels of the organization. In this episode we cover what is and isn’t a systems inspired leader, how to empower leaders and teams to adopt this different approach to leadership, how systems inspired leadership sets us up to better navigate the complexity and destructive forces of the 21stcentury, and stepping into the collective intelligence of the system itself. So without further ado I bring you CRR Global co-founder Marita Fridjhon.
KC – Marita, it’s an absolute delight to have you back on the show. Season three, here we are, and today we’re talking about systems inspired leadership which is by no means a small topic.
KC – No, I’m delighted to be here and part of the challenge is that, you’re right, it’s not a small topic and it builds so I think it’s a good idea if we can begin to look just from the meta view and then we can dive deeper in future calls as well, what are we talking about. You know, I think we are working on shortening and defining a really good definition but I think it really is about the fact that systems inspired leaders leverage the wisdom of the system itself in order to create from emergence. It is, and you can just see how, if we think of principles that says leadership is a role that belongs to the system, it’s that piece, how do I in a state of emergence, how do I lean into.. as a leader, how do I know that I don’t have all the answers. But within the system that makes up that web of interdependent connection between us the system has the answer and I think that’s the piece.
KC – So in our organizations and our companies then, what doesn’t that look like? What’s the opposite of being a systems inspired leader?
MF – Well, you know, I wanna be careful here because there’s the 20thcentury leadership that really is very strongly associated with top down, and then there’s been an emergence in the 21stcentury of different kind of leadership. So, there’s leadership models that’s about conscious leadership, that is systemic leadership, that really is beginning to bring the focus to the we culture, the we of leadership. So, when we’re talking about, and that’s sort of the second irritation, I think we’re busy emerging into the future that is about beyong the we-ness. It’s that it-ness above the system itself that has the answers. So I think if we say what is not systems inspired leadership it is the 21stcentury model is not. It’s top down, I’ve gotta have the answers, we’ll do what they say, what I say. I think that as we emerge the we-centric leadership is we do what we decide, it is using a collective input model, it is relying on partners and team members. So that’s a we-centric leadership. I think a place that we cross in through a different edge is that we believe that systems inspired leaders also tap into literally the voice of the system itself. So, that’s what’s missing. In even some of the newly emerging co-leadership, systemic leadership, it’s still focusing very much on the people and the parts. System inspired leaders focus on the web of interdependence, the connection between the people and the parts.
KC – That’s really interesting, it seems to be much more of an evolution into systems inspired leadership, both in a holistic and an individual level, we’re not quite there yet.
MF – I think we are emerging into it. That’s why it’s difficult to collapse everything together and so when you’re asking what is not systems inspired leadership it really is asking about what differentiates us in this model from other post conventional 21stcentury leadership models, because those are no longer top down. It is an evolution. And I think it’s this piece that the voice of the system itself, that’s the true intelligence that will guide us. That sets us apart, that’s the differentiator.
KC – How can leaders go about shifting from the people in the parts to the web, quite a big shift I imagine.
MF – It’s a big shift. And you know, in the model we talk about five different competencies. This central competency is that of holding consciously intentional relationships. So, be conscious in the face of emergence the impact on people and be conscious and intentional in terms of how we relate. Can you see that, that’s again emerging into this 21stcentury leadership. The including and transcending of that is be conscious and intentional in the relationship with the system itself. That’s the place where we can go to, when I work with a team of executives we want to, and it’s just an overview of the other companies as well, we want to hear from everybody but ultimately having heard from everybody we want to hear from the system itself. That’s when we go to that place that says what is nature asking of us? That’s the ultimate system. What is the pandemic asking from us? That’s a different set of information from just us collectively figuring out what we need to do about it.
KC – So, it’s kind of considering stakeholders who aren’t even in the room.
MF – It’s considering stakeholders who aren’t in the room, absolutely, and it also is considering beyond the stakeholders. The system, the entity that is that core stake holder. So, if we’ve got a group of stakeholders sitting in a room, present or not present, their ultimately needs to be the question of if we can step into the shoes of this entity that is us, stakeholders. What does it have to inform us about, what does it know that we don’t know? Because everything we say and speak, if we remember that a system we think is a theoretical concept and it is, but also it’s a reality and if you think of the, from modern systems thinking or however you want to look at the definition of a system, the system itself, because it is not so consensus reality, the only way in which it can express itself is through the stakeholders, is through it’s members. So, we hold every piece of contribution from the members, the stakeholders. In the meeting we have us an expression through the system that speaks through us. From a systems perspective that’s how we reveal the system to itself. Once we’ve done that we begin to emerge and move towards the place where we can then sit down and also begin to hear it from the prospective of that very entity itself.
KC – You make me think of my ORSC training and I remember creating a human machine and we all had to go in and be a part of the machine…
MF – Yes!
KC – And it reminded me of that because together we created this very unique machine, very bizarre, and actually that’s what you’re talking too isn’t it? It’s that wisdom from there.
MF – Well, it’s interesting, absolutely, it’s interesting, Frank Uit de Weerd, one of the senior faculty members and myself are busy offering a book on systems inspired leadership. And we really, over time, we knew this but we then had to walk into the consensus reality of it’s not Marita or Frank that’s writing the book, it’s Marita and Frank but it’s the relationship between the two of us with its knowledge that actually comes through us. So, I can’t tell you the number of times, when you’re co-authoring a book it’s not always the easy thing because how do you speak with one voice and all of that stuff. But you have no idea how many times I had to pause, in essence actually sit, listen and wait for the information from the book itself that wants to come. So, in writing the book we really ended up like the example that you used. We really ended up having to walk the talk of systems inspired leadership. And I, in a previous conversation with you said it’s not for sissies, it’s not for the weak, it’s vulnerable and courageous because it does mean, it is not about my ego as leader or thought leader. That is not always easy, for all humans.
KC – Which is odd because it kind of goes against, quite often, what people expect when you’re the author of a book. It is about you and what you know but what you’re saying it’s about all the research and researchers and leaders who’ve informed everything you’re talking about as well.
MF – Yeah. And I remember when this first came through for me was years ago, I was approached by an author, a very successful author who’d already sold, he was non-fiction, and he’d already sold the next manuscript and he had what we know as writers block. He just, and he was running out of contract time, so he started working with me as his book coach and at sometimes we just couldn’t get anything moving, and then I started doing what we call in our training and in the organizational relationship model the third entity exercise. So I had him take his own side and speak, you know, about all the difficulties he had. And then I had him go and sit in the chair of the book and speak about that and then I had him talk with the characters in the book. Literally facilitated the conversation between him and all the different characters in the book itself and then finally he went and sat in the chair of the name of the book, the book itself, and we asked the question what does it know that you don’t? What does it want to bring out in the next chapter? So we had that kind of conversation. And he had a break through, the entire rest of the book literally was him dialoging with the characters, taking the seats of the different characters and just about every day before he really started writing he would then also sit down with the book and go ok, how can you help me today? What is it that I’m missing? You just head all of the conversations. And it made a difference. That is the differentiative response inspired leaders. That we can truly sit and have the conversation with every part, every player, because that reveals the system to itself in very strong systems thinking principles. If we then go and sit with the system itself and ask it, that gives us very different information. That redefines collective input.
KC – Yeah. It’s just such a wonderful example because we say how systems inspired leadership sets up to better navigate complex and destructive situations and that helps us to understand why because you’re stepping into a very different perspective, one that actually encompasses all of them.
MF – Yes. And, you know, in the book and as we talk about systems inspired leadership, you and I and several people have lots of different conversations about the five principles of relationship systems intelligence. And it actually remains the guiding principle for systems inspired leaders as well. So, there really is a place where those principals are in a constant state of emergence. And when emergence occurs it really becomes a very stressful place and it becomes the place where we see a lot of what we call conflict or toxicity or whatever and one of the competencies that a systems inspired leader holds is that in the constant emergence of new challenges what is the way in which we can work with conflict as an ally? If we really hold the conflict that happens between two people as a poorly packaged, kicked around pool of dust now packet of information and we be consciously intentional about that. That brings us different information, it slows us down, we’re in that principle of creating from emergence. So one of the competencies then really is about how to see conflict as an ally and collaborate and work through that.
KC – So, I’ve got lots to unpack there Marita, as always, I guess my first question is how does one step into that space when you’re part of the system? Say, you are a leader in a company, you know, I can imagine as a coach coming in it’s a slightly… I don’t want to say easier… but easier perhaps to take on that view.
MF – Yeah, and you know what, in the book we talk about it as well, it’s like the doing side of all of these. So it really is, when we think about working with conflict, the moment we can facilitate the conversation for people to take their own side, even collectively, go around the room and take your own side and then begin to listen to somebody else’s side that you can switch chairs with, any of that is already putting us in that conscious and intentional relationship competency, as well as holding conflict as something that is here to teach us something new. It may show up between us but it actually is in service of something bigger. I’m not even sure that I answered your question but that’s what came up!
KC – No, it felt as if you were sort of normalizing the fact that we come in with these biases and viewpoints and bringing them to the surface right up front.
MF – Yes. And I think in terms of how we work with leaders, one of the ways that is practical and you know, you and I are talking theoretical at the moment, but some of the practical applications is to literally use chairs. Go and sit in a different chair, go speak from that chair. Then go sit in a different chair, go speak from that chair. Because we can name the chairs, this is the chair that says it sucks, it’s horrible, everything is bad. So it’s just anything like that that gets us out of the part of the brain that wants to fight or flight. Hats is a useful way to go about it as well, if I’m the leader and I can say here’s the question that I have as leader with my leader hat on and then model. What I know also want is to go and try the hat on of collegue and say I’m also sitting with you in this. So how can we talk about this? Or, so the use of hats, really systems inspired leaders, it’s what we call star walk. They walk their talk of systems inspired leaders. They demonstrate it, they be it all the time. So, it really is the invitation over the edge of what is familiar to team members of systems inspired leaders to really model things, normalize it, let’s use different hats. So when you see that hat, what’s the hat that you’re speaking from? Just give it a name.
KC – And then it depersonalizes it in a way.
MF – Can you feel how it immediately takes us to that we space that is, not only speaking for myself, there are other people who feel this as well.
KC – And then would the next step on be, after that we space, in this space look at the collection of roles or voices we have here and what’s that telling us, is that that next step you were talking too?
MF – The next step that is about, if we imagine that our team just used our voices and our hats and our roles to express around this. Let’s go and sit in the chair of the team or let’s wear the hat of the team, if I’ve done chair it’s go and sit in the chair of the team, the hat’s… anybody, who wants to first pick up the hat of the team itself? That relationship that all of us belong too. What does it say about all of this? In that moment when you begin to talk about it it doesn’t sound so weird anymore because we’ve all been through an experience of taking on other things and other voices.
KC – Yeah. And understanding yourself as part of that it as well.
MF – Yes, yes, yes.
KC – So, I’m wondering, you mentioned about one of the competencies and before we dive into the other four if you could briefly explain the difference between principals and competencies? Because we’ve discussed the five principles of RSI before and I just want to sort of clarify that.
MF – Yeah, it’s a, everybody else who’s listening to this please Google the difference between competencies, principals and tools because those are the four things that actually dance together. So, principals are the basic underlying principles that hold the model, so it’s more the theoretical statement, systems in the state of emergence, those are the, it’s a theoretical state. The question then is how do I give expression to that when I encounter or when I step into a situation? That beings to take us into tools and skills. One of the skills we’ve just, in this example that we’ve just talked about, we’ve used the tool of group democracy, hearing everyone’s voices, of hats, those are all tools, of having people change seats, those are whether we call them exercises but they are tools with which we can create a different expression. When I am completely in, you know, holding the basic grounding principles I execute them with tools and skills, you can see how I am automatically in a competency that is, that allows me to be artistic, if you will, in how I do it. So there’s the principles, there are the guiding principles for the reasons why we do what we do but I need tools and skills, I need to make it real, how do I make the principle real? The conscious awareness and the unconscious knowledge of that that then lets me express through the tools and the principles, that becomes a competency. So it’s, again, it is over arcing but it’s only after I’ve become fully steeped in the principles that I can begin to know what are the ways in which I can execute? If I see this emergence what are the stools and skills that I can use other than have a round table conversation in order to begin to create deeper clarity. And then there are certain competencies that encompass both of those, that gives us what we call and think of as at the CTI Coach Training Institute talking about unconscious competence. In the beginning when we are training we are consciously incompetent. We then shift to a place where we become unconsciously competent, I do it, it flows from me, that’s, those are then what we’ve pulled together as the five competencies.
KC – Oh that’s such a great explanation because it made me just think about learning a new skill for the first time, like a sport, and how, for example, I’ve been learning how to ski over the last five years and now I’m not thinking about the techniques and the skills and those things, they just happen.
MF – Yes.
KC – And so, it really talks to being a beginner in systems inspired leadership, there’s a lot going on and it’s quite hard to hold all that.
MF – Yes, that’s a really good example. It’s like our life, we’re surrounded by things at which we’ve become unconsciously competent. But we could only get there through practicing the skills and tools, it’s the example that I’ve used so often around… if you look at sports and my tennis example that I need to practice the skill of backhands and backhands and backhands across a ball machine or a coach that’s feeding me backhands. It’s only once I’ve become really competent at that that I can begin to go into a match and know, unknowingly, that where I’m going now is a backhand from this corner. But I don’t think about it anymore. It’s that unconscious competence.
KC – Yeah, because the brain’s built up a sort of log experience that it calls upon then.
MF – Yes, yes, yes.
KC – Because you probably can’t react fast enough in time to the tennis ball but you’ve done it so many times now you’re hitting it back.
MF – Yes, it’s become a habit.
KC – Yes! So, in terms of competencies, for those of us who are newer to coaching and are still working towards being unconsciously competent can we still have these competencies in mind as something to work towards as we practice the tools and the skills?
MF – Yes. And that actually is what we are doing in the book. So, the doing part of it is about practicing the skills and tools in which you practice the competencies. Competencies influenced by the principles. So we’ve just talked about holding consciously intentional relationship as a central competency and that awareness of consciously aware that I want to bring other people in to meet the expression, now how do I do that? Those are the tools and skills. We’ve talking about the competency of working with conflict to facilitate emergence, conflict is one of the signals of the principal of emergence. Now what are the tools and skills, what is the doing side of that? If we’re thinking about one of the other principles, er, competencies that is reveal the system to itself, we’ve talked about it earlier here that as we are collectively contributing, input, conflict, conversations, whatever, we are in the process of the competency of revealing the system to itself because once we have that handle then we can begin to get the direction and guidance from the system itself. When the other competency that we’re working with is that of hearing, sensing and seeing the system. The system, not just the players, the system itself because that’s expressed through the players. So, hearing the system we’ve talked about, let people have their voice, sensing the system we achieve by becoming aware to emotional feels, what’s the atmosphere here at the moment, what’s the culture? One of the tools that we do is to create design team agreements and team alliances, that’s the sensing of the emotional field. Seeing the system very much is in this visible in any form of constellation. So, when people sit at a dinner table around dinner, that’s a constellation. Then something happens, somebody’s at the door, the dog barks, somebody gets up and goes to the door. Then that person doesn’t come back and suddenly someone goes wait a minute, what’s just happened? And all of those are changing constellations that also gives us information. So that’s the hearing, sensing, seeing the system, is then the fifth competency. In each one of those we described tools and skills which you can execute and we can tie them to the principles as well.
KC – And I’m aware we could probably deep dive into a whole hour podcast on each of those so this is just a brief overview but fun that, I can totally see how that stepping into, how to become a systems inspired leader is that being space that you spoke about at the beginning.
MF – Yeah, there was, on some level the easy part is training and prevailing the tools and skills that makes possible the execution of the competency. The more difficult and challenging part is that vertical development that allows me as a leader to take a deep dive in being in a conscious and intentional relationship with myself. In working a conflict between different parts of me, as it emerges, as I evolve together with everybody else, so the being part has more complexity to it because it really is about self first assessment. I first have to be able to do these things and work with myself, in, during and before all of this before I can really get good at doing it with others.
KC – So, unlike the principles which we loathe to number because they’re interrelated, would you say that first competency, being in an intentionally conscious relationship, is kind of first and foremost to all of them.
MF – I think it is… I think it’s central to and I think it’s an underpinning. That’s why in a diagram we created it’s in the center and the others are circled around it. But unless I’m consciously intentional it’s very difficult to co-create and create from anything. Unless I’m really lucky or really evolved or it’s a really easy situation. So, conscious and intentional, even if I do something like I say I’m going to bracket something here now, what I’m about to say is not the most skillful thing and then saying the thing, that’s consciously intentional relationship. Catching myself when wait, that just slipped out, that’s not the impact I want to have – that’s consciously intentional relationship, so, yeah.
KC – So, in terms of, say I’m a new coach who’s going all the right things, I’m practicing all the tools, the skills and I’m following all the steps to the letter. What can get in the way of me really embracing and embodying these competencies?
MF – I think what I see a lot in, I do a lot of consulting with coaches, senior as well as newer to the profession and team coaching, I think what I see a lot in the beginning is too many skilled roles with clients. Because they still need to be in the skilled role environment but they already are playing the match. So I think that there is something about, and then there’s in one session, I’m going to do five tools with this client.
KC – Right.
MF – So, I think it’s good practicing but overall there is that piece about practicing the tools with a colleague, practicing it with your kids at home, make it part of everyday life. I think that is the, that is a phase that I don’t think anybody can escape. Because all of us are consciously incompetent and so many of this. So, and consciously incompetent is actually a great place to be because it’s a place that I can say without ego, my goodness, I have no idea how to do this. That’s a win. So, I think that it’s understandable that in the beginning I think we may be doing too many tools at the same time and that’s missing, but that’s practice, that’s still practice.
KC – Mmm. That’s such a good point, I was working with my coaching supervisor recently and I have a habit of almost saying here’s my tool box and it’s this treasure trove and god forbid if I don’t bring out my toolbox in a session, and actually it was more about weaving this work in so it’s more organic.
MF – You know, and again, one of the basic coaching and, I think, leadership competencies and team coaching competencies is too meet whoever is in front of me wherever they are. And you and I have done a podcast on it. Meet them where they are, not where I am. If I meet them with five tools I am meeting them where they are because the tools may be in service with something they need to work on, but I am overburdening and overpowering them. If I meet them where they are then I may use one tool, go a little bit deeper and then go to a coaching conversation about it or then go into a team dialogue about it. But don’t immediately bring in the second and third tool. So, I think it’s that piece, so there’s a… anticipate that there’s going to be a not always great pieces as we are emerging into this and evolving it and prototyping it.
KC – Mmm. As this conversation has emerged I’ve realized that we’re never going to ace the competencies are we? Not in this lifetime, at least. It’s a constant work in progress, right?
MF – It really is and you can see how it’s the evolving of the first system in itself, it’s my evolution that will keep on bringing me up and to places where I’m still consciously incompetent.
KC – Yeah.
MF – So, it depends who you put in front of me. There are certain people where if you put them in front of me I may not be the best coach or leader because I’m not in… that specific place I can’t overcome my own difficulties well enough yet. So that’s an invitation for me to continue to grow myself. Ok, what is it that makes it so difficult with that person? Let me do some work on myself, thank you for the gift, I’ll get back to you.
KC – Right, so it’s not just mastering the competencies, it’s also the context in which you’re working which is endless.
MF – Yes. And there is no there there, unfortunately.
KC – No there there.
MF – No there is not.
[Music outro begins 33:55]
KC – Thanks to Martia Fridjhon for that interesting discussion around systems inspired leadership. Here’s a recap of the five competencies systems inspired leaders exhibit that enable them to create from the system and tap the collective wisdom. Seeing, hearing and sensing the system, holding concious and intentional relationships, revealing the system to itself, working with conflict to facilitate emergence and co-creating systems inspired safety. And do look out for Marita Fridjhon and Frank Uit de Weerd’s book, Systems Inspired Leadership, which will be released later this year. We’ll keep you posted about launch dates and interviews over the coming months. For over 18 years, CRR
Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger
relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This
leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of
Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one
relationship at a time. We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the
larger whole.
[Outro 35:19 – end]