Ep. 9 ORSC and Mindfulness

In this episode, Katie talks with CRR Global faculty member Sunčica Getter about ORSC and mindfulness. Across this conversation, they discuss: 

• What is mindfulness?
• How can mindfulness help us to become better systems coaches?
• How can the ORSC tools and skills help us to be more mindful?
• The inner observer as an ally
• The role of compassion
• Some of the benefits of mindfulness- personally & professionally

Sunčica Getter is an MCC systemic coach, consultant, educator, and Director for Continuous Development at CRR Global. With over 20 years of experience, her focus is on transformational leadership development and systemic culture change. Her work in coaching education has seen her train, mentor and supervise coaches and design and deliver academic, public, and in-house coaching training and accreditation courses. Her experiences collaborating with world-class coaching institutions and diverse clients have made Sunčica a trusted systemic coaching consultant. She advises companies and institutions on the implementation of systemic coaching and systemic thinking for both organizational and community development. In addition, Sunčica is a qualified mindfulness teacher, having trained with Jack Kornfield and Tara Brach through the University of Berkeley’s Greater Good Science Centre.


For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman

SC - Sunčica Getter

[Intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode, I'm talking with CRR Global faculty member Sunčica Getter about ORSC and mindfulness. Across this conversation we discussed; what is mindfulness? How can mindfulness help us to become better systems coaches? How can the ORSC tools and skills help us to be more mindful? The inner observer as an ally, the role of compassion and some of the benefits of mindfulness personally and professionally. Sunčica Getter is a systemic coach, consultant, educator, and head of continuous development at CRR Global. With over 20 years of experience her focus is on transformational leadership development and systemic culture change. Her work in coaching education has seen her train, mentor and supervise coaches and design and deliver academic, public and in-house coaching, training and accreditation courses. Her experiences collaborating with world class coaching institutions and diverse clients have made Sunčica a trusted systemic coaching consultant. She advises companies and institutions on the implementation of systemic coaching and systemic thinking for both organizational and community development. In addition, Sunčica is a qualified mindfulness teacher, having trained with Jack Kornfield, and Tara Brach through the University of Berkeley's Greater Good Science Centre. So, without further ado, I bring you some Sunčica Getter talking about ORSC and mindfulness.

KC - Hi, Sunčica, welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast.

SC - Thank you, Katie. It's a pleasure to be here. 

KC – I am so excited about this conversation today. It feels long overdue. We are discussing ORSC and mindfulness. I wonder if we can start by talking about what mindfulness means to you because I know there's many definitions and interpretations out there. 

SC - Yes, I think that's a perfect place to start. So, I'll start with a formal definition - I think it's always useful to have one and I love the one that probably a lot of people are familiar with, which is Jon Kabat Zinn’s definition: mindfulness is awareness that arises through paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment, without judgement. I love all the elements of this definition. So, there's that purposeful paying attention and I think it was to Harare it was said that attention is our biggest asset nowadays and also the biggest commodity that everybody's after. So, I think we need to pay extra attention to where we put our attention in our lives in the world because otherwise it's going to get taken or hijacked by things and technologies around us life around us. So, there's that paying attention in the present moment and I think the other really important aspect is without judgement or non-judgmentally, because very often we do pay attention we have lots of opinions about things that we noticed and that we see. And that's great, that's our faculty that allowed us to develop as our race and as human beings. And at the same time, there's real richness, opportunity, and lots of information where we are able to pay attention without judgement. 

KC – That is a beautiful definition. It makes me think that this is so useful in ORSC. There's two sides. So, there's both mindfulness can help us as ORSC practitioners and to be better systems coaches out in the world. But also, it feels like ORSC has a lot of this built in in the tools and the competencies. So, I wonder whether we start with one side of that coin and talk about firstly, how you feel mindfulness can be so beneficial to us as systems coaches.

SC - I love that you're bringing both sides because I think that's so true and you're actually making me pay attention now to the other side and how ORSC tools can help us in being more mindful. But as you said, let's start with this one about how mindfulness can help us as ORSC practitioners. Mindfulness, for me, in a nutshell is a way of developing our inner observer. So, the one that can stand behind the waterfall, and the waterfall is everything that happens outside of us and inside of us, all the buzz and noise of life and beautiful things that happen, and equally all the noise and internal landscape that happens. If we can stand behind that waterfall and observe it rather than being in the waterfall, then we have the space to make more informed choices. I think our job as ORSC practitioners is to support our clients in making conscious and intentional choices. In order to do that, we have to help them to hold the mirror to their system and who they are. And again, in order to do that, if we take one step back, we need to develop that ability to stand behind the waterfall to zoom out, to have more of a meta view, and I think mindfulness really helps with that.

KC - It's that meta view, as you mentioned, or it's always called that balcony view. And it's really helpful in this because it's so easy to get pulled in by a dominant voice if we're working with a team. Or maybe if we're working with a couple, maybe we have a preference for one person's opinion, and if we're not aware of that then that can lead to potentially bias and our own judgement showing up in the session.

SC - That's exactly it and it's so easy to start siding with a position or an opinion. And obviously any position or a view or an opinion is reductive, and again, how we support the systems is to help them hear all the voices, as many voices as you can that the system is capable of holding that moment. And it's really important then not to get again hooked into one particular position or voice.

KC - There's one thing you said in that definition as well around paying attention in the present moment and I think that feels key, at least for me as a systems coach. Not generalizing a system, because I've worked with a similar team before and thinking ‘oh yeah, they have these same challenges, I know this’. I notice sometimes that story can come first and I'm not actually taking in the sensory data that shows up in the space. I can see you nodding there on the presence piece.  

SC – Yes, it just reminds me of this part that we're all aware of how much time we spend in the past or in the future. Then us spending time in the past or the future, either trying to prevent something from happening, trying to make something happen, trying to change the past or analyzing the past and then we miss what's happening in the present. Then if we spend time in the present or future then we're looking at what's happening now through the lenses that are not completely accurate. But there's something really powerful about the present moment, being in the present moment, because, and I believe this and I think in ORSC we also believe in that through nonlocality, is that everything is present in the present moment. All of the information that we need and all of the things we might need and want in order to move into the action that we need to. So actually, by not being present in the moment we miss a lot of what gives us agency. So that ability to let go of what we thought before, believed before, or at least hold it at bay. So of course, there's lots of usefulness about knowing the history of a system, there’s lots of usefulness if we spend time thinking about our high dream for the future, etc. But how can we, at the same time, really be available to all the information that is here right now, at this moment. 

KC – It’s so easy isn't it to be hijacked by a story or a sense of something being a certain way and that clouds the way you show up, not just for one session but all of the sessions. In many ways, it makes me realize that mindfulness helps us to be more neutral, would you say as a coach, to take that step back. 

SC - I would agree with that. There's something that comes up that I'll share with you in a second. It’s more neutral in a sense of letting go or the desire of the outcome. Free from that desire to have a particular outcome that then can have us stir or manipulate whoever we're working with, or ourselves in that way. Which we, again, know how important that is in our work, to really be open to what's emerging rather than have preexisting notions or where the system should end up or what's good for our clients, and to support our clients to also not have that attachment. Because, usually when we allow ourselves to be more neutral in that sense, to allow things to emerge and unfold, more magical things will happen. Actually, the systems will surprise themselves at their capacity to be generative and creative and the outcomes can be much better than we would have thought ourselves in a way to be attached to them. So, there's that part, and I don't want to miss the part which I think is important in mindfulness, and the kind of mindfulness that I particularly practice - there are many practices that can support us in that which is Vipassana or ‘clear seeing’ that has its roots in Buddhism, but in Vipassana there's a belief that a practice of mindfulness is a bird with two whings, wisdom or clear seeing and compassion and that both are equally important. So, while we want to be neutral in terms of not attached to the outcomes or not resistant to the outcomes, we also want to have an open heart to allow ourselves to be moved by the systems because that how we connect and enroll.

KC - That's such a good point because we're not detached, we're not robots. That wouldn't help us get that information from our own system of me. Faith has written about this in her book about how can you love your clients, because actually having that ability to care will help more of that sensory data to emerge within you. It makes me think a lot, when you said about the compassion piece, about how whether it's when we meditate or whether we are coaching, we so often don't think about that lens that we're looking through, and actually, when I go on my meditation cushion and I'm just trying to get this done because that's the thing that makes me feel like I'm a good person, it's not necessarily bringing that compassion piece, and that feels like a very important component here to actually really living in a mindful way.

SC - I believe it is. I think there's something in what you're saying about caring. You used the word caring and I really believe caring is a courageous thing. To be more disrobed with light, or objecting completely, but I think caring is a very brave thing to do but at the same time, then most generative thing we can do, being with that open heart. And I also think it's necessary - not just me, tradition thinks it's necessary - because it allows us to see more of what's happening, because we can hold anything that's happening with compassion. Whereas if there's no compassion, we might be criticizing ourselves for what we see or criticizing and judging the system for what's happening with them. Whereas there’s a huge level of acceptance in mindfulness that we want to develop and that is also very necessary in our ORSC practice. Saying whatever is happening with the system is serving it in some way. Maybe it's unskillful at the moment, maybe it's not something that we want to keep, and at the same time, it's turning some function. All the voices that are showing up are turning some function and are there for a reason. How can we hold it with compassion so we can understand them and see them fully, and then the system itself will have enough intelligence to choose what's next for it. 

KC – And that really helps us to move away from that fixing mode which I know many of us can fall into. It's very appealing to feel like you fixed something, and you did a good job, and I feel like this approach is not about outcomes or you getting to a certain point with the client. It allows for lots of different things to emerge and holding all of those with that compassion too. 

SC - I hear you. Yes, of course there's something that can feel good in the short term, where we go into the fixing mode, it makes us feel powerful in the moment and we can get that fit of feeling really good, but long term it's not something that serves us. It doesn't do us justice as humans and it doesn't do justice to our systems because it simply cuts off the magic that sits behind that. In ORSC work we believe in that self-generated evolution of the system. There used to be a belief in systems theory before the 20th century that we're just looking for some perfect systemic design and as long as we can find one perfect generic design, we can fit every system in that structure and it's going to function really well. And then we woke up to the fact that somewhere in the 20th century - actually, no. Each system has its own inner intelligence and wisdom and it's capable on that self-generated evolution and we are only there to facilitate that evolution. And of course, we want to know what's next for each particular system, we can't know. That is a bit of a humble place to hold because it's not about us in our no call, in our answers, it's more about sitting back and being an observer that can hold a space and hold the mirror to the system so they can evolve into their next step. And we'll be surprised, and they will be surprised with that ease. 

KC - That's such a good point around how systems has changed in terms of the theory. There's a difference, I’ve been learning about the difference between complicated and complex systems and how complicated is say, your car, and if it breaks there's a part that needs to be fixed but it's a closed system. Whereas the systems we're dealing with our complex and I feel like mindfulness is the tool for that but we're trying to fix complex problems in complicated ways and it's not working. We're trying to put a round peg in a square hole and we're feeling the repercussions of that. I think people are talking a lot right now about corporate window dressing. People feel that there's not a real systemic change at a deeper level, it’s just show. Mindfulness feels like a really powerful tool for that because it's hard to hold something that's complex and actually, I don't know, who knows what's good or what's bad? That's quite a brave position to go in with as a leader or a coach. 

SC - I agree with you. It is a very brave position. And it's a liberating position. And I hear you about that window dressing. I’ve worked a lot with start ups where that is the modus operandi, because we live in a culture that it wants us to perform our best at all times, to give 100%, to always gain five stars. And so it is a brave thing in that environment to say ‘well, I'm also going to allow for some messiness’, because that messiness, or perceived messiness is part of complexity and it’s like how do we allow complex systems in their full complexity rather than try, exactly as you said, to fit them into the wall that might be easier for us to comprehend in a moment, but actually reduces their capacity and their inner wisdom.

KC - That's exactly it, that intelligent, generative and creative nature, it's hard for us to hold as human beings because their timeframe or their version of intelligence might be different from ours. But when we're mindful it feels like we're able to hold more in that container. In terms of how mindfulness shows up in the ORSC tools and techniques, where are some places you see this? 

SC - I love your question. I'm going to start sharing some answers and maybe we can think together. I'm thinking about in tools and I’m thinking about metaskills that we hold, I'm thinking in different skills. So, let's look at all of them together because I think even just the premise of the third entity, as a tool that we use but also the concept, is very much connected to mindfulness and if we can practice seeing the third entity it can help us be still and mindful in the moment. Meaning when we're not mindful, exactly as you said before, we're trying to fix one little thing that we notice is maybe not working, or to focus on just one tiny aspect or a tiny voice. Whereas really understanding it and sitting and standing in the position of the third entity all of a sudden, opens up that field and allows us to pay attention to what is there right now in the moment. ORSC really invites us to use all the channels which is another thing about mindfulness. So, not to just be focused on our thoughts but to use different faculties, different senses and different experience channels to actually get the information in the moment. This skill of unfolding is very much something that is developing our ability to be present in the moment, paying attention to arising signals and allowing them to unfold without judgement or attachment to where that's going to go. I actually think that's a perfect practice for mindfulness.

KC - And it's amazing if we think about it, both in terms of our own system and then the systems we work with, I know with me it's very easy to - and I'm sure this is the case for many people - if say I've got back pain right now it can be very easy to go to the story of back pain as opposed to actually the sensory experience which actually isn't this sort of blanket statement back pain, it's moving and it's shifting and it's not actually that bad compared to how it was yesterday, and that's very different. Then if we apply that to our systems it could be very easy, if a system starts arguing to say ‘okay, they're arguing again, yeah there’s bad tensions here’, but not actually tune into how they're arguing and what's the intricacies in that? What are the dynamics between the people arguing? It’s very easy to broad brushstroke if we're not in that mindful space. 

SC - Yes. We use one example of a tool and a skill and even if we think about the RSI principles, the principle of the systems being in a constant state of emergence, that's what mindfulness is about. Really not believing that the past, where they were in the past, is where they are now. That is, again, paying attention to what's arising now and really believing that things are changing and that whatever we experience, feel or notice is to know that it’s arising and will be disappearing in a second and something else will be in its place. I think that principle of emergence captures that so well. 

KC – I’d not thought about that before, but it is, in some ways, a mindfulness practice. When I've come away from really great sessions, and by great, I mean in terms of the way I've shown up, it’s normally because it's felt like a meditation which sounds strange but it's almost like meditation off the cushion. It's wonderful when we catch that. Of course, it's probably impossible to be 100%, mindful all the time as a systems coach because there's too much going on but the more we can dial that up, wow, the more we can see and hold on their behalf.

SC - Yes, all of that it. Then developing our observer in respect of noticing when we are really present with the system and aligning that and when we go into any other mode or wanting to know or moving towards the outcome, which is also fine, but just that ability to then notice and see the patterns and realize what our own tendencies might be and how to hold them with compassion. What are the moments in the coaching session when I go into the linear and this isn't the way to do it mode? Or which clients are those where I tend to be like that? When can I be a bit more open? And again, with no judgement, because all of that is data and all of that is created in interplay with our clients and within the wider system. So of course, there's also that inner humbleness, we go back to that term, but that it's not all upon us. But where we do have an agency is to pay attention in the private moment

KC - That's so interesting because I guess what I spoke to was that idea that so many people have, that meditation is about getting rid of the thoughts. But actually, it's being aware of the thoughts. So even if the inner observer is noticing that you're distracted and not really paying attention, that’s information and we should be kind and compassionate with that to. 

SC - Exactly. Meditation, the same as ORSC, will not remove our humanity and I think we don't want it to. So, you produce thoughts, more in some days and less in some other days, and occasionally we stay on the cushion and there's going to be lots of thoughts, that waterfall is going to be heavy. There's nothing wrong with that. Our job is just to sit and observe and hold it with compassion. And there are going to be other days when that water is just trickling and you see a lot of sky behind it, a lot of sunshine, and your mind is vast and empty and that's great, too. Both are equally useful. So, it's really important not to fall in the trap of perfection in meditation itself, or in being a mindfulness ORSC practitioner which we can do as well but it takes us away from actually being mindful. 

KC – That’s so true and it's so easy to fall into that trap, I’ve fallen into many times before it and I realize I did it on this call. It's fascinating, isn't it, how we have this sense of being this really calm, Dalai Lama-esque figure, but actually, that's not necessarily what being mindful is about. And it could be that if you're feeling some energy in you, that's a system signal because you're also in the system and observing it and that might be something you speak to: ‘I'm noticing I'm very energized today. Is anyone else feeling that too?’ I mean, that's parallel processing as Marita talks to a lot, but there's so much data and wisdom there that I think we often marginalize as well because we're trying to be so present for everyone else.

SC - Yeah. And that's another way of practicing mindfulness, really being aware of that parallel process. That says all interconnectedness with everything, actually noting that the waves of information run through parallel systems at the same time. And as you said, again, whether we noticed Lots of energy or a lack of energy, it’s just data that has no meaning on its own so it's going to shift and of course, you're going to work with our clients to understand what it means for them at that particular moment, and again, let go, because the moment they can see and think it and hold it in their mind, then something else will emerge again.

KC - It's so interesting how much we miss if we're not paying attention in the present moment.

SC - Yes. And I just want to acknowledge that we'll miss a lot even if we do and that's okay too. But we might notice more, we might notice more relevant data on a good day. So, there's an invitation to follow that with compassion as well, on a good day. Some days we’ll notice more, some days we’ll notice less. There's something about, and we always speak about it in ORSC, about our intention. Intention to the present, intention to be an non-judgmental, intention to bring compassion. And that's required of us. And noticing when we wander away, and two famous golden words in mindfulness meditation are ‘begin again’. So again, there's no judgement but we always have an opportunity to begin again, when we notice that we drifted away from our role or from being present, or from our heart, or from being connected to our client, there's always the opportunity to come back to the anchor, and in mindfulness that anchor might be breath or it might be our body. And in ORSC I believe that anchor is also our relationship. So our relationship becomes an anchor, our relationship with the client and the wider system becomes an anchor that we can always come back to. So whenever we drift into our idea of the system should it be like, or whenever we go into self judgement, how bad our coaching is today, or whenever we go into being triggered by the client, how difficult they are or how wonderful they are, we can sort of go back to the breath that relationship is in systems and all the information that we need will be there.

KC - That's beautiful. I imagine that applies as much professionally as personally. It makes me think how so often in our personal lives it's very easy for people to get stuck in certain roles or for us to generalize them because we've been together for X amount of years, and how lovely to have relationship as the breath, the anchor, and you keep coming back to it. You'll get thrown off for many, many times but you keep coming back. I love that. 

SC - Relationship as an anchor. Exactly that, somewhere to come back to. I think that's also a parallel between ORSC and mindfulness. We think of breath. Why is that an anchor that's so often used? Because it just happens, we don't have to pay attention to it, it happens. But when we start paying attention to it, we notice a lot about our life because every breath is very often the mirror of our lives. When it's deep and our inhales are strong, there probably is a different place in our lives when that when it's shallow or fast. And yet that breath, while it serves us a mirror it’s constantly breathing itself. I think there's something about relationships in the same way. So, of course, our job and when we engage in ORSC work we are supporting our clients and we're paying attention to say, what's the flavor of that relationship today? What are we noticing about it? Is it breathing in a deep and grounded way or shallow way - what's happening? Not making up any meaning about it other than being curious and unfolding. And at the same time, whether we do that or not, the relationship is breathing itself, it exists, its essence is forever there. It just happens, and I think that can be a very grounding thing in itself to trust that that's there.

KC - That's brilliant. I love that because it sort of shows us that we don't have to do anything. We're not adding anything else. We're just revealing what's already there. The breath is so useful, I think because you realize you can do it waiting in queue for your coffee, you can suddenly just connect to the breath. But relationship is always there as well, and we can always come back to that. But if we don’t, we know that it's there too. 

SC – Yes. Which again, to what you were saying. I love that because again, another skill or competency of revealing the system to itself is actually a mindfulness competency. That's what we do in meditation, that's what we do in ORSC. 

KC - Yeah. So, I'm curious, I know you've been practicing this for many years. Where are the places in your life where this has impacted you the most professionally and, perhaps, personally?

SC – What would stand out for me… let me get connected to that. Three things come up and I'll share all three of them. One is, I feel what has shifted for me is that I'm more in that space of self-compassion and it's through mindfulness and meditation in ORSC practice that I'm somehow able to hold myself with more acceptance. The depth has also allowed for a bigger range, more playfulness in my life, more breath - it feels more spacious. That has a huge and such a valuable impact of really feeling and experiencing that self-compassion and that has come from mindfulness and meditation and ORSC as well. I think this has actually affected all my roles. I think they used to be more in all my goals, whether that's a role of a mother, or a role of a consultant, or a role of a coach. So, I believe that as a mother, I had more frequent ideas of what it should look like and was more annoyed if the world was not in line with my expectations of what everybody should do and how they should be. And I think there's more curiosity and ability to also step back and notice what I'm responsible for and what I'm not, and notice that sort of things pause and happen and notice that longer arc of development, let's say, for my children, and for myself, which I think is a lot, or mindfulness brains. The third way… 11 years ago now I was very ill, I had cancer and started meditating intensively, daily. And it has really helped me hold that experience of being seriously ill at the time and engage with my body in a different way and with my experiences of difficulties in a different way and it has been such a huge gift. 

KC - That really talks to holding all voices, even the uncomfortable ones. I think that whole idea is easier said than done because it's not easy to hold the voice of our own mortality or the voice of cancer, and it seems like mindfulness helped you to hold that in some ways for yourself. 

SC - Yes, and of course I fall out of it and go back to it. As most of us who have an experience of cancer, cancer becomes, in ORSC terms, a ghost in our system that keeps coming back. So, a brand-new bursary on my list, or at a time when I hear about somebody else being ill, that ghost gets really activated. And not just that ghost but different voices and roles in my air system get activated. So, I get the one who knows everything and wants to be super healthy, and then at that moment, when I start feeling that fear that ghost triggers I’d go ‘okay, so you need to get better with your eating, get with your exercise, you need to take this vitamin’ – so a fitness fixer. Or there's another one who’s in panic and catastrophizing etc. I think where mindfulness then helps me, again, on a good day, when I remember to hold it differently and to just notice what's happening and say there's fear arising again and that's okay. Very often, I talk to myself in the second person which my teacher Tara Brach taught me, so, dear one, you know, it's okay. You're just afraid. It's just fear - fear labeling helps a lot. We use that sometimes in ORSC as well. There's fear happening then somehow there's a little bit more spaciousness as it happens in the moment. But I guess one of the reasons why I'm saying this is to say- we're going back to that complexity and messiness of human systems – that the work is not done. It has helped me hugely and at the same time, of course I have days where I fall out of it but there's something to come back to, the same as we've talked about with relationships, there's something to come back to. And I think that is so important in life at work, to have that place you come back to. 

KC – But that makes me think we’re never going to arrive because our context is constantly changing. And isn't that amazing in many ways? I mean, it's scary, of course, but it's also amazing because we wouldn't be who we were if we were immortal, and we were guaranteed forever. We wouldn't be making the decisions that we are and so I think there's something about that constantly changing of environment, our bodies, we're ageing every single second, and all of that is encouraging us to be present with what is. 

SC - Yes. And accepting that change and that everything changes is so tricky. Of course, it’s sometimes tricky because we only want the change we want or we think we want. 

KC - That's so true and it's easy to say who knows what's good or what's bad when something good actually happens? I know I use that sometimes and it's like, ‘but yeah, I really actually was quite happy that happened.’ It’s much, much harder to hold when it's something that really is tragic, scary or horrible.

SC – And even a little discomfort. What that makes me think of is where mindfulness helps us and equally ORSC with it, who knows what's good or what's bad? Is to say a change might be uncomfortable at the moment and so this doesn't mean, there's no positivity bias and saying, ‘well, we need to get over ourselves and just seeing the good in this change’, we can just hold that experience and then say ‘this feels really uncomfortable right now. I don't know how it's gonna feel five minutes or five years from now. Maybe it's going to be the best thing that happened to me, maybe it's not. But for right now, what I can hold is my discomfort’ and if we have that ability to be with that discomfort our experience will change.

KC. Yeah, that's the piece, isn't it? It's not rushing to fix it or try and change it into something. I think we do tend to have a positivity bias, which I know in many ways is very good, but toxic positivity isn't helpful. And so how can we hold all of those voices in a mindful way? Thank you so much for this gorgeous conversations Sunčica. I'm walking away with a lot today. Thank you for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom and your light.

SC - Thank you so much, Katie. I leave inspired by your questions and your thoughts and your way of connecting ORSC with mindfulness. Thank you.

KC – Thank you, take care. 

[Music outro begins 37:04] 

KC – Thank you to Sunčica Getter for that fascinating discussion around the intersection of ORSC, coaching and mindfulness. Here are my key takeaways. Jon Kabat Zinn’s definition of mindfulness is as follows; Mindfulness is the awareness that emerges through paying attention, on purpose, in the present moment, and non-judgmentally, the unfolding of experience moment by moment. Mindfulness is a way of developing our inner observer, the part of us that can stand behind the waterfall, which is everything that happens to us, outside and inside of us. If we can stand behind the waterfall rather than being in the waterfall, we create more space for ourselves to make informed choices. Our job as ORSC practitioners is to help our clients make conscious and intentional choices, and to do that we must provide a mirror for our clients. This is possible when we are able to take a step back, stand behind the waterfall, and take more of a meta view. Just like the breath is often used as an anchor in meditation practices, somewhere to come back to, we can also use relationship as an anchor in our lives. Just like the breath it happens whether we're aware of it or not and when we pay attention to it, we see that like the breath relationship can be a mirror for our lives. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. CRR Global’s unshakeable belief is that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. For more information please visit CRRGlobal.com.

[Music outro 39:10 – end]