Ep.16 ORSC and Spirituality

In this episode, Katie welcomes back Faith Fuller, co-founder of CRR Global & Judy van Zon, a senior faculty member at CRR Global, to talk about ORSC and spiritual intelligence. Across this conversation, they discuss: 

• Why ORSC and spirituality?
• What is spiritual intelligence?
• How can spiritual intelligence help us as coaches?
• What are some ways we can access or harness our own spiritual intelligence? And that of our clients?
• Some of the benefits of spiritual practice- personally and professionally

Faith Fuller is a co-founder of CRR Global. She is a psychologist and experienced trainer and coach, with over 20 years of experience in working with organizations, couples and communities. Faith takes a systems approach to coaching, namely that all aspects of the system need to be addressed in order for effective change to occur. Her particular skill is empowering powerful, productive and joyous relationships in couples, partnerships and teams. She also has a background in consultation, team building, conflict resolution and community crisis intervention.


Judy van Zon has lived and worked in several countries and speaks the language of people who are crossing a border, physically as well as emotionally. In short, she works with people who are going through personal or professional change. One of the things that sets her apart is her inclusion of spirituality to help her clients better connect to their own inner wisdom and power. In her team coaching, Judy believes that working with the ORSC model is a very powerful way to build bridges in relationships. It goes far beyond familiar skills like empathy and active listening. It offers a whole new way of looking at people and how we live and work together. Her focus is on working with corporate leaders and teams. Training others in this allows her to spread this energy throughout the world. For the last 25 years, she has lived and worked in six countries on three continents, the last 3.5 years in India and the region around. She is now back in the Netherlands and, as well as being a senior faculty member, was the former Director of Certification at CRR Global. Judy speaks Dutch, English, German, Spanish, and French.


For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman

FF – Faith Fuller

JVZ – Judy van Zon 

[Intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode, I welcome back Faith Fuller, co-founder of CRR Global and Judy van Zon, senior faculty member at CRR Global, to talk about ORSC and spirituality. Across this conversation we discuss why ORSC and spirituality? What is spiritual intelligence? How can spirituality or spiritual intelligence help us as coaches? What are some of the ways we can access or harness our own spiritual intelligence and that of our clients? What are some of the benefits of spiritual practice, personally and professionally? So, I bring you Faith Fuller and Judy van Zon talking about ORSC and spirituality.

KC – Judy, Faith, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast. I am so excited to have you both on the show today.

FF - Well, I'm delighted to be here, and I'm delighted to be talking with Judy. We just discovered we've been talking about spirituality in ORSC for years.

JVZ - That's correct. Thanks, Katie for holding the space for all kinds of amazing topics. This is one that is very close to the heart of Faith and myself. Thank you.

KC - I'm so curious about this topic today: ORSC and spirituality. Can we start there? Why ORSC and spirituality? Why did you pair these two things together?

JVZ - Well, when you hear the word intelligence or three intelligences: emotional, social, and relationship systems intelligence; we feel that spiritual intelligence is the natural next evolution. It's like one hole on up from these other intelligences. It's like a natural next step, if you like.

FF - Absolutely. And just to clarify what we mean when we say spiritual intelligence: I think it's important to make a distinction between religion and spirituality. I have the most profound respect for both, but I think that we feel that we are going to be discussing spirituality which is more in the essence aspect of the mystic and the divine, rather than the more consensus reality of religion. So, there are many, many paths to accessing spirituality and the divine and not all of them are religion, and some of them are religion. So, it'll be very different for different people.

KC - I'm wondering then, what do you mean when you say spirituality or spiritual intelligence? Because I'm sure there are many different definitions or understandings of this. 

FF - I think when we talked, we were trying to find the common theme in any form of spirituality since my tradition tends to be more Buddhist. Judy, do you want to mention yours? 

JVZ – So, my tradition is Vedic. Vedic is a Sanskrit word that stands for knowledge, by the way, so Vedic knowledge. That is the lineage that I've been learning from. So, what is spiritual intelligence and where do these different lineages really come together? When Faith and I talk about it where can we easily find each other? It's really about getting beyond the ego identification. Who am I? What role am I to hold? But also, who are you? It's identification that on the spiritual level gets extended, gets expanded. So, it's dropping the ego? 

FF - Yeah, absolutely. Ego is that which tends to separate us, according to every religious tradition. So, when I'm deeply involved with my personal identity of me then I tend to feel separate from others, and that can come across in any kind of diversity. I'm white, you're black, you're Catholic, I'm Jewish – all these ways in which I’m separate and the more separate we are the smaller our identity. So, what spirituality tends to do is expand awareness. Doesn't matter what tradition you're in or if you're atheist, if you're interested in personal growth through the form of awareness of the world, awareness of self, of community, of the globe including nature, spiritual intelligence develops awareness and begins to break down the boundary between myself and other. So, it also increases empathetic connectedness.

KC - Would you say this awareness creates a sense of oneness then? Because the boundaries and the borders aren't so obvious when the ego dissolves somewhat. 

JVZ - Yeah, that's also a great way to say that. That it's emerging into the oneness of things. In that, underlining one thing that you just said Faith about the extended awareness. If you look at those intelligences, emotional, social and relationship systems intelligence, that still very much has a human focus, it's focused on human beings and how we create more and more oneness as humans. But like you said in your example, in the context of spirituality, it goes beyond human beings, and it includes nature also. It's like whatever the world consists of, it’s something that you can feel a oneness in. I'm looking outside my room right now. I see the palm trees waving and that is something that I can connect with on a spiritual level with a sense of wonder and awe. So, it's beyond human beings.

FF - Well said, I really like that distinction. If you think of all the intelligence that we teach in ORSC, we do begin with emotional intelligence or the system of myself, getting to know that and integrating those aspects of self, appreciating them. Then there is appreciating the one-to-one relationship, dyadic: my husband, my child, my business partner, and that expands my awareness then with relationship systems intelligence. I can feel and experience the system of the team or my community or even my nation. Then as we expand further out, now suddenly it's not just humans, as Judy said, it's the whole globe. Ultimately, it's the cosmos, my expanding a sense of I belong to this, I am part of this, my identity is this. And that which we identify with we take care of. Martin Buber says, ‘I endow, what I love I will care for, it is not a you anymore, it is a thou, it is a sense of the sacred and what is a thou, what is sacred to me, I will care for naturally’. So, we'll do a better job of taking care of the world when we love it deeply. our backyard, the bug in the bathtub, whatever it is. 

KC - This is fascinating because I don't think spirituality has ever been explained in this way to me. It seems that when you embrace spirituality it seems to be quite systems inspired. You can't help but see those systems and the interdependence of all things.

JVZ - Yeah, that's great to add to that as well. The interdependency. It's actually a different way of saying oneness, everything is interdependent. Because one way or the other, we're all that one web that we are connected within, the whole world. Yeah, lovely.

FF - Yeah. I love that too. And actually, it’s what science tells us. Another thing that's important for me personally is science and spirituality should not disagree. If there's a dichotomy there it makes me wonder. But what we know on the atomic level in terms of how atoms are in relationship, they are interdependent and they attract, they repel or they're neutral, so they're in relationship and they are all interdependent there. That goes up every hole of life and non-life, straight out to the galaxies which are interdependent, our systems. So, spirituality encompasses it all and ORSC tends to be more concerned with human systems.

KC - I guess I'm curious about how embracing spirituality and spiritual intelligence can help us as coaches.

JVZ - I think what faith has said already, in that growth into expanded awareness, stepping into that oneness, really feeling the interdependency on a very large scale. We care for what we love, what we feel we belong to. That deep sense of caring, very essence-y sense of caring is something that helps us as coaches. We're working with the system right in front of us to deeply care about that system and actually realize that one way or the other we are interconnected with that system. That there are parallel processes going on. It's extremely helpful for us as coaches.

FF - Yeah, awareness and that sense of empathy that awareness produces is pretty fundamental to coaching. If we can't empathetically connect with our clients, we don't know the ground of where to work together. Judy, I think you mentioned this last time we talked, that it's a natural gateway. A spiritual intelligence with this awareness and its compassion, it's a natural gateway to world work along the lines of we care for that, we take care of that which we care for. So, ORSC is all about World Work. How can I understand, connect and care for not just myself and my clients, but moving that out to my teams, who are also my clients, but my community, nation, globe. So, it's a natural doorway to World Work and to empathetically understanding the needs of our clients. 

JVZ - You remind me, Faith, of what’s the whole intention underneath ORSC? It is to expand awareness. So, this is just one hole on up to extend our awareness even further out and caring for, feeling the oneness, really feeding that sense of compassion. But also seeing the natural beauty of systems, I think, is also very helpful. It's one of our principles: systems are naturally creative, intelligent, emergent. But really feeling that on an essence level, beyond having it as a mental concept, is actually an application of spiritual intelligence, the way we hold it. 

FF – And I think we get there naturally in terms of how that develops. I think in some ways ORSC maps out some of adult developmental psychology in terms of how we evolve as human beings. So, the first thing we learn about in ORSC, or we learn about all along the way is the me system, emotional intelligence. What's going on in my system? And then what's going on in dyadics, teams, the we and so on. But ultimately, that sense of expansion is a normal evolution of human beings, I believe. You don't have to do something to develop it. Although one can do something when asked to practice in the same way you practice ORSC tools, to learn to be facile with it. But I think the natural evolution of human beings is that sense of oneness, of empathetic connectedness and interdependence with everything, and it evolves as a natural outcome as the next step for people who love ORSC and for people who love systems. 

KC - It's amazing because these two paths seem so inextricably interwoven. I can't really separate it now you're having this conversation with me. It seems that ORSC and spirituality, it's hard to tell one from the other. Does that ring true? 

FF - Yes. But it's a secret! I think we've been we've been in the closet about spiritual intelligence for obvious reasons - it doesn't play well in the corporate world, at least not in that term. What do you think, Judy?

JVZ - Yeah, and in a way it's a well-known secret. If you think of tools that we use in the world channel, think of quantum flirts, where does it come from? That that is extended awareness that goes beyond the level of human beings. It's integrated. We don't underline it so much, and Faith, you keep using the word natural evolution. I love that. It's the natural evolution, next step for ORSC to start aligning that maybe even more. I also want to underline, Faith you said, ‘because it's natural we don't need to work hard for it’. It's not like ‘okay, that's the next degree I need to sign up for’. There is hard work involved but it’s natural. It's a natural evolution for humanity, if you're open to it and if your heart opens to a natural connection to whatever is. 

FF - Yeah, and again, I want to underline that I know many people who are agnostics or atheists, they don't I believe in a religion, but they are highly spiritual people, they are interested in a better world, they are interested in evolving as a person. Religion is a particular spiritual path, but Judy and I were talking yesterday about the fact that there are many paths up the mountain to human development and spiritual development. Some people have an affinity for a particular religion and other people don't, at all. They find it in nature, or in meditation, which isn't necessarily religious at all. They have practices, and practices are helpful. Again, that's like practicing an ORSC tool. Those practices vary enormously. Judy, I'd love to hear about some of the things you do and I’m happy to share some of mine. 

JVZ - Like how to harness their spiritual intelligence and what to do around it. Well, for me, it's the balance between, well, both sides. One is these practices and I do daily meditations to really reconnect with myself to begin with, and then through that with the larger hole. Also, to quiet my mind. I think if we said spiritual intelligence lives in the arena of somewhere beyond ego and smaller identification, within that smaller identification my mind has so many thoughts, keeps thinking about stuff. It has likes, it has dislikes, it has opinions, it has all kinds of things going on. So that's what I mean when I say meditation is helpful to connect to self, to ease the mind. I do that on a daily basis, I have breathing techniques which is another way to really tap into a deep source of energy. Let me say one more thing, because I have more practices, but I started out by saying it's sort of a balance between those practices, like the consensus reality of it. But also in my tradition, the Vedic wisdom, almost like life wisdom, how to live life. It felt for me when I stepped into onto this path like I was finding the truth, not about what's right and what's wrong but the essential truth underneath everything. So, I do a lot of reading as well. Faith, what are your practices?

FF - Well, I think what my practices and yours have in common is anything that increases my awareness, particularly my awareness of the present, the here and now, rather than living in my past, something that happened to me yesterday or something was gonna happen tomorrow that I'm worried about. I think spiritual practices freak people out because they think they have to go sit on a cushion and ‘om’ or something. And by all means, sit on a cushion and ‘om’ if that helps you be present, more still in the mind and reflective about yourself and the world. Anything that slows you down, it does not have to be a formal practice. I know people who get their mind expansion through running, or skiing, or being in nature. So, whatever slows you down and brings you to the present, out of your mind, out of the thinking mind and present to the beauty that is there in the moment, is a spiritual practice in my book. So, we have preferences for what works best with our nature. But does it wake you up? Does it make you self-aware? Does it bring you present? That does it for me. 

KC – And that feels essential in many ways, as systems coaches and leaders. I meditate regularly and sometimes my mind is so busy and I think an awareness of that is so helpful because then I'm aware of what's going on in the system of me and I can counter that getting in the way of me connecting with my husband or my clients. 

FF - Yes. 

KC - And it's interesting that that awareness, in itself, can actually help us to expand our awareness to those other systems. Because often we're going around and we're not even aware that we're being distracted by our own minds.

FF - You bet. It's very hard to be present when you're designing a course, I find. Except to be present with the course, I'm very present with the course. But that distracted mind feeling doesn't allow us to absorb the gifts. Judy and I were talking about the gifts of, well, of beauty. I feel that when I sit outside and have a cup of coffee, I may not be formally meditating but I'm experiencing the sunlight through the leaves, the bird on my lawn, laughter down the street - there's so much beauty that would feed us if we would slow down and be present.

JVZ - So that's the big why underneath looking in this direction. Raising or increasing the ability to see beauty in everything. Faith, you and I also talked about how it's not like, all of a sudden, there are no problems anymore. Everything is beautiful. The word naive comes to me right now, it's not like that. Life comes with ups and downs, we have our challenges, but how to be with those, it’s almost like a meta skill. The meta skill of spirituality and putting whatever challenge is there in the middle. Again, there's expansion happening, spiritual intelligence increases your capacity to also be and work with difficult issues in life. 

FF - Yeah, it's both, isn't it? Because that expanded awareness and the slowdown to be present and aware of what's happening. Just as Judy says, it's not just the light through the trees, it's also the anguish of somebody who is very sick, who is standing in front of you, or the pain of what's happening in a war, or poverty. If anything, you're tenderized by that awareness and that openness to things, you're less protected. So, I would say it intensifies everything. The beauty, thank heavens, because it also intensifies the empathetic pain for what is happening around us which is what inspires our world work. And in Buddhism they talk about something called prajna, which is awareness, being able to see the things around you and to be aware of them. You also need opia which is how to work with it. What's the skillful means that you need to work with that which you are perceptive of. And ORSC has a lot of tools of how to work with conflict, with misalignment, all of those things. We need awareness and then we need skillful means.

KC - I have a quote on my wall that says obstacles do not block the path, they are the path. It seems to me that spirituality helps us to dance with emergence, and almost get ourselves out of our own way because I think our presumptions, and our stories, and our expectations can sometimes block the actual path in front of us.

JVZ - I love that. That’s sort of like the other thing that we talked about which is lion's roar, or the confidence that whatever arises is just the beginning or disturbances ally. I think once we are aware we need to have the tools. Increasingly I think a certain sense of peace comes in the trust that this is just the beginning of something happening. That thing that is right in front of us, if we’ll just be present for it, not try to change it. Judy, you and I talked about that. It's not about ‘I accept this, I reject that, I'll do this, I won't do that’. It's about opening to this is how it is and how can I be in right relationship with what is at the moment?

KC - Would you say it helps you to hold neutrality, then, in the face of adversity?

FF - Great question.

JVZ - Yeah. I'm looking out at my palm tree to see if there's any wisdom there. It's a beautiful question. I'm just giving you what comes up to me personally, right now, I don't feel more neutral ever since I started walking the spiritual path. I actually feel an even stronger sense of engagement to whatever happens. However, in a way, the way I relate to it feels more neutral in the sense that I'm less judgmental. ‘This is wrong, why me? Why search and why so?’, but more trusting the creative force of the universe. So, it's almost like a shifting meta skill because of which I can be with it in a more effective way. So, not really neutral. It's a ‘yes, and’ maybe. I don't know, what comes up for you Faith? 

FF - Again. It's a fabulous question. It brings… I'm not sure again that neutrality is the right word. It brings more understanding that this is what is in front of me, rather than fighting it. You know, I have cancer, somebody else lost their money, those are facts, consensus reality things that happen. But I do understand that fighting with what is isn't going to help me. Or accepting/rejecting, all my neurotic getting triggered, that isn't accepting of what is there. The acceptance is this is what is, this is what's happening. Then if anything my heart may be even more inflamed with compassion or grief that this is how it is, that the bird hit the window and is dying. Once again, the next piece of news about how the environment is failing - that's what is right now and it brings great grief and more, if anything, more heart to want to do whatever I can to help. So, there's more acceptance of what is without pretending it isn't there. But more broken heartedness about it too. So sometimes I think I'm more brokenhearted. More feeling of what can I do about this? Because it's standing there in front of me. So, I'd say it's both, it's a column, there is both more acceptance and less. 

JVZ – Yeah if I may add to the word acceptance that you bring in, you're accepting what is instead of fighting it, it's like an active acceptance. It's not like tolerating, but active in the sense of okay, I can't change it, it's here. Nobody can change the past, nobody can change the current moment. To slow down and be with what is here and accept it in an active way. It really is what it is. Now what? What can I do? What do I want to do? I feel that very strongly as well.

FF - I love that, that it's an active acceptance rather than a passive acceptance. It's never ‘well, whatever, I'm not going to look at it, it's too icky’. It really goes straight in because you have less defenses. Then what's next is the discernment that we have to figure out. What is next? What is mine to do here, if anything. 

KC - It seems to work with that relational aspect because, of course, the event doesn't change and your reactions are there, but maybe it gives you more agency in terms of how you relate to that over time?

JVZ - Yeah. How to relate to that shows up very differently in an expanded level of awareness than from a contracted level of awareness. If I may sort of blurt what comes through me right now, it's not like if you're active on the spiritual path, like world angels, solving all the problems in the world because you understand everything and feel connected and feel love for everything. I don't know, I just wanted to name that. If I remember the first course I took in this lineage, the teacher asked every one of us, there was a group of 60 people, this was in India, and she asked every one of us, ‘why are you here?’ And I didn't even have to think about the answer. It was I'm here for peace of mind. I'm here for peace of mind. My mind is driving me crazy. I tried everything to quiet it but it's getting in my way. Katie, you said it before, getting yourself out of the way. For me, it was at that moment in time, peace of mind. And so, stepping on the spiritual path for me offered me a hand hold and ways and practices and truths to develop that. But first and foremost, for myself, in the beginning my world work was very small, it was just about me and my peace of mind.

FF - I love that Judy, thank you. Yeah, I think that would bring me the most horror, if people were to suddenly think that you become Saint like. I am just as irritable as I ever have been. I'm just more aware of it, which makes it sometimes worse! 

KC - Yes. Thank you for naming that, both of you, because I did a retreat before Christmas which was very powerful, and I think there's a sense that you'll come back and life will be so sparkly and wonderful, but you just start to see all of the cracks a little bit more clearly, both in yourself and then in the systems around you. That awareness can be quite hard initially to be aware of and it's not always an easy path, is it? It actually sometimes seems more challenging to take this direction.

FF - Because when you have more awareness you see how messed up you are. You see your reactions more; you see other people's reactions more. Yes, you're more aware and you feel all the things that you feel at the same time but you're aware of them. So, you have a little more choice. A little more choice in how I'm going to respond and that's also what ORSC does. It gives us a little more choice about how to handle a situation. So, awareness is double sided as a sword. It makes you more acutely aware of your own ego and it's not interested in developing that. Which means it's a constant insult to aspects of your ego. So, it's not always a picnic and it's certainly not making you angelic, just maybe a little more skillful.

JVZ - The tool of de-triggering comes up for me now as we get so often triggered. From a place of spiritual intelligence, I think we have just a little bit more choice that if we notice that we are triggered, how to be with that.

KC - I think that's such an important point, Judy, around that little bit of choice. After this retreat, I think I was hoping to be transformed. I think many people go into these practices looking for some kind of radical transformation. It really is, at least for me, the one-degree tiller shift, it was really tiny. And it was maybe a microsecond where I'm able to sort of hold back what I'm going to say as opposed to saying it. Have you both noticed this sort of one degree tiller shift over your practices and your lives now?

FF - Yeah, I agree. So many times, I've also come back from retreats thinking I finally got it, and then, your child leaves their clothes on the bathroom floor, and you lose your stuff! You just lose it. I had to go through years of humiliation of just how undeveloped I was in this area. It's a slow path. Spiritual intelligence, like any other kind, is a slow path, that one degree tiller change. I just want to say one thing that they say in Buddhism that I'm finally beginning to understand, which is that in the beginning, nothing happens. You're sitting on a cushion; all you just feel is as nuts as ever. In the middle, nothing stays, you go to a retreat, you have all these beautiful insights and the next week you're fighting with your spouse, it's like nothing stays. And in the end, nothing goes in the sense of you can begin to see all obstacles, things that happen to you and with you as an opportunity to practice lion's roar, as an opportunity to wake up further and work with your own ego.

JVZ – Well, Faith, that's probably why we’ve talked about it for years between each other. We need a long time. The words way of life came to me. It's not like okay, let's take the box and put this accreditation in my pocket. It's a natural evolution for humanity, it becomes a way of life and it's again, again, again. In Sanskrit we say puna, puna, puna, every time, again, and again. So, one of my practices is that I go to a silent retreat twice a year, every spring and every fall. And every spring and every fall, like both of you, I come out and I think wow, now I've cleaned up all my mess. And then life continues, and stuff builds up again, and in half a year’s time, I'm longing… it's not I have to go, I want to go again, again, and again. 

KC - Yeah, that makes me think of my friend who’s a monk. He spent many years in ashrams. He said that he had this master meditation teacher, and everyone was always surprised when they learned that this teacher was also on antidepressants. And his point was that it doesn't just go away just because you're somewhat enlightened. I think many of us come to spirituality to try and get rid of the stuff, and actually the stuff becomes clearer in some ways. That will be different for different people, but that's such a lovely example of how we're not running away from anything. We're running into it.

FF – That’s really well said. The stuff is the path, as Judy said. 

KC - I think you've both touched on this throughout this podcast but I'm curious to find out how this has benefited you personally and professionally. 

JVZ - Yeah, I think I have mentioned already. It gave me more peace of mind. Anyway, it gave me tools for recovery when my mind was not at peace. On a very personal level it was the one thing that happened to me because of which I could drop the past, leave behind and just take it as happening but without all the strong emotional experience, my storytelling around it. Without a drama. It's still there but without drama, and that allowed me to move forward and be available for why I'm here and the work I have to do here. So, for me, it felt like a lifesaver.

FF - I love the less drama, Judy, I think that is so true. There is less drama in my life around things that are happening. Much less narratives about who did what to whom, with or to me. I'm more present and I also am less lonely. I don't feel cut off from hardly any person unless they're irritating me in the moment, and then it’s brief. But I feel connected ever more broadly to nature, to any difference that I see around me, whether language, or skin color, or gender or whatever. I'm more curious and present and open. So, I belong better in my world. I'm happier with the circumstance of the moment, which is very important when you have cancer. I'm not thinking about dying, I'm thinking about being alive, because living is vivid, because I'm present, slowed down and open. So, it's brought me huge gifts and I would love for others to have what gifts they find there.

JVZ - Yeah. And that slowing down that you refer to often, Faith, is something that I think it offered me professionally as well. The ability to slow down and be with what is. Especially in working with systems, I realized that in myself much more than as an individual coach, everything working with systems, so many things happening. As I'm saying this, I'm noticing my breathing becoming high and a little bit anxious like I need to fix something, do something, but really, the ability to hold more of whatever is happening in front of you and slowing down and be with it, unfolding, I think that was something I gained very much as a professional. On a good day! 

FF - And also yesterday, Judy, we talked about how part of what it's given us is the ability to see the beauty as well as the problems in someone. So, in a way, as a coach we can reflect back the beauty that we see in clients and teams. I've never worked successfully with a team I reflected back my dislike for, and I've had them! When I dislike a team, I cannot reflect their beauty back to them. But when I can see their shining qualities, their beauty, I can mirror that back and that raises the whole level. They see it in themselves. So, everybody's level gets raised in terms of positive self-awareness. 

KC _ Wow. So, would you say then that by connecting to the oneness or the interdependence of all things that we recalibrate the negative bias in the brain?

JVZ - Yeah, I think so. I think there's also a lot of research in the meantime that meditation practices really have a direct impact on all kinds of wiring of the brain. It brings out more positivity. Yeah, absolutely.

KC - Yeah. One thing I just want to underline what you said before, Judy, about how this is something that you just are, it's not something you necessarily have to find. I think many of us, including myself, come at this sometimes really consensus reality, like I've got to meditate for 45 minutes every day otherwise I'm a bad person. And you realize that it's much more of a way of living, as you said, because you can also just take that one mindful breath when you're standing in line at the grocery store. I think sometimes those sort of ideas of ‘I have to do this and then I'll become that spiritual person’ get in the way of the path.

JVZ - That's well said, and well noted how an easy breath in line at the supermarket is an expression as well. Absolutely.

FF - You bet. I think as we evolve spiritually, we become more open to the grace of knowing in a moment what to do. I often wonder how did it come to me when I'm standing in a line and I'm irritated, that I could just take a breath and relax. How did I remember that? It's kind of a form of grace, part of it’s habit and practice, but you're also more open to the grace of the moment of trying to find that and that's magic.

JVZ - One other thing that comes to me if I may add. This is age related, I would say. Apologies Faith, but both of us are not the youngest anymore. Let's say that we are into our 60s and beyond. I don't feel that it’s as if you're walking the stairs, you start with emotional intelligence, working on self, social intelligence, etc. And then in your 40s, 50s, you get to be considered intentional in relationships, and by the time you're going to retire there's space for spiritual intelligence - I don't feel like that at all. If I think of my own sons who are really young adults, they are very much on a spiritual path also and weave it into their busy lives as they are buying their houses, stepping into their marriages, and being busy in their careers. Very worldly life, but also integrated with spiritual practices.

FF - Yes, I completely agree with that. You need to be where you are, in your path, in that moment. And it comes naturally. Sometimes, if you have little children, it's not an easy time to meditate. But when you're nursing your baby, just taking a moment to slow down it could be it… find what it is for you in the moment.

KC - This is really reassuring as I step into that next life phase of becoming a mother to two. I was speaking to my mentor about how even now in pregnancy I'm struggling to sit for as long as I used to. So, I've shortened it to 10 minutes. There was a sort of disappointment in me that I'm not who I used to be. But there are also so many other ways to be connected. My body is a fascinating source of wonder right now because it's changing so much. So, I think there's something to be said for, I think the word you used was integrating it into your life. It's not this, ‘oh, I do my spiritual practice and then I'm done, now I can do my day’. The whole day can be your spiritual practice. 

FF - Yeah. Well said.

KC - This has been such a beautiful conversation and I am walking away with a lot. So, thank you both for sharing. I know this is the culmination of many, many years of conversations and thank you for letting us in on one of them today.

FF - Thank you! Big hugs to Judy and to you.

JVZ - And thank you, also, Katie, for holding the space for us, for Faith and myself to look for words to express something that is actually so close to essence. We all know that it's not easy to bring words to it, so thank you for that invitation. And thank you Faith in terms of looking forward, you are my model and the last thing, the sentence that I’ll roll out: grace of knowing in the moment what to do. In Holland we say tile wisdom, on your kitchen, you have tiles, you have tile wisdom, that's the spiritual tile wisdom. Thank you.

FF - Judy, there's one other thing you and I talked about that I think we should share. That is there is one practice, if you're working with your teams or your clients, whenever you bring in essence - essence is the prajna way. Your spiritual intelligence. Keep practicing essence, quantum flirts, imagining into what's inside all of those, essence is very close to spiritual intelligence.

KC - Well, thank you for dancing in the essence with me today both of you. This has been such a delight. Take care.

[Music outro begins 44:16] 

KC - A huge thanks to Judy and Faith for that really interesting discussion. Here are my key takeaways. Spirituality builds our awareness. Just as in ORSC where we teach the three levels of intelligence, spirituality also works to expand our awareness and enables us to see the interdependence of all things. As opposed to identifying with our separateness, we start to see ourselves in relationship with everything and that which we identify with, we take care of. Spirituality is a natural doorway to world work and to empathetically understanding the needs of our clients. The natural evolution of human beings is towards a sense of oneness, of empathetic connectedness, and interdependence. And it's evolved as a natural next step for people who love ORSC and are interested in systems. Anything that increases our awareness of the present, the here and now, can be considered a spiritual practice. If an activity helps to slow you down and brings you to the present moment, whether that be running, meditating or sitting in nature, it can be considered a spiritual practice as it helps to expand your awareness. Spiritual intelligence increases our awareness, not just of the beauty in the world but also of its challenges, too. The spiritual path is not an easy one, yet it provides expanded awareness that helps us to get beyond our ego and connect with ever wider systems in our lives. Essence is a doorway to spiritual intelligence. So, whenever you bring an essence into a coaching session, whether that be through quantum flirts or three levels of reality, you're bringing spiritual intelligence into the session. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. CRR Global’s unshakeable belief is that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. For more information please visit CRRGlobal.com. 

[Music outro 46:43 – end]