Ep.20 Listening to Understand

In this episode, Katie talks with senior faculty member at CRR Global, David Wikander, about the importance of listening to understand in our relationships. Across this conversation, they discuss:

• What does it mean to really listen?
• What leads to us feeling misunderstood or unheard in our relationships?
• The impact of energy on our listening
• The importance of timing when it comes to listening
• Creating skilful behavioral contracts with our partners around WHEN and HOW we listen

David Wikander is a Senior Faculty member with CRR Global, certified with Team Diagnostic, and a certified Co-Active Coach. David’s approach is systems & relationship-oriented, whether he is working with teams, couples or individuals. This approach holds that we are always in relationship, whether the relationship is to the many aspects of our self, the relationship we have with others in our personal life, or the relationship we have within a team or organization. 

Part of what David brings to his coaching is immense diversity in education, training, mentoring, teaching, leadership development and workshop leading, as well as developing and operating several highly successful businesses. He adds to this his own lifelong personal and spiritual growth path.


For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to build stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time

We believe Relationship Matters, from humanity to nature, to the larger whole.

Transcript

Key 

KC – Katie Churchman

DW – David Wikander

[Intro 00:00 – 00:06] 

KC – Hello and welcome back to the Relationship Matters podcast. We believe relationship matters, from humanity, to nature, to the larger whole. I’m your host, Katie Churchman, and in this episode, I'm talking with senior faculty member at CRR Global, David Wikander about the importance of listening to understand in our relationships. Across this conversation we discuss what does it mean to really listen? What leads to us feeling misunderstood or unheard in our relationships? The impact of energy on our listening. The importance of timing when it comes to listening, and creating skillful behavioral contracts with our partners about when and how we listen. David Wikander is a senior faculty member with CRR Global certified with Team Diagnostic and a certified Co-Active Coach. David’s approach is systems & relationship-oriented, whether he is working with teams, couples or individuals. This approach holds that we are always in relationship, whether the relationship is to the many aspects of our self, the relationship we have with others in our personal life, or the relationship we have within a team or organization. Part of what David brings to his coaching is immense diversity in education, training, mentoring, teaching, leadership development and workshop leading, as well as developing and operating several highly successful businesses. He adds to this his own lifelong personal and spiritual growth path. So, without further ado, I bring you David Wikander talking about listening to understand in relationship. 

KC - Hi, David, welcome to the Relationship Matters podcast. I am so delighted to have you on the show today.

DW – Hey Katie. It's great to be here. It's good to see you.

KC - Today we're talking about listening and listening to understand. This is such a fascinating topic for me, because I feel it's one of those skills that seems simple, but it's not easy. I wanted to start by asking you, David, what does listening to understand mean to you?

DW – To me it means really focusing, like, I really want to understand what you're saying or what you're expressing, even underneath the words. Because there's the words, but what's really going on? How are you feeling? What are you really wanting to get across? As a listener, that's the stance I would take.

KC - And I think many of us are often listening to respond. As you said that it was making me think how we're often thinking about our next thing as opposed to actually this thing.

DW - Yeah. And also, it goes along with trying to condense. When you look at how most of us grew up, all of our role models, books, movies, what's out there, it's oftentimes, usually trying to convince. I want to convince that I'm right or convince that my point of view is the correct one, rather than let's understand each other first. Both of us, because it's important, obviously, that it goes both ways.

KC - You're right, it doesn't seem to be natural to us and I'm sensing that our way of listening is often pushing out our ideas, our stories, our assumptions, as opposed to really pulling.

DW - Yes, in fact, that would be a signal. If one person or both are just constantly pushing out, like ‘my point of view, my point of view, this is what's going on, let me tell you what’, that's certainly a signal that people are not feeling heard or understood. I oftentimes ask my clients; ‘do you feel understood?’ I’ll ask them both. And most of the time they’ll say ‘well, sort of’ or ‘no’. If it’s ‘pretty much’, well what's the part that you don't feel understood? Or if it's ‘no’, which is often common, then I'll ask the other person and they usually say ‘no’ or some version of that. Then, okay, we need to do this differently. You guys need to have this conversation in a different way.

KC - Well, I know you do a lot of work with couples, David, and I'm curious about the patterns that you see, because I think many of us think we're actually quite good at listening. Particularly in the coaching industry. I think we go back to our personalize and we presume, ‘yeah, I've got listening down! I mean, I'm a coach’. What do you see unfolding in sessions that might help us to become more aware of maybe when we’re not listening properly?

DW - Yeah. Well, that's a good question. Again, it's really looking at do you feel understood because so often that's the case, people don't feel understood. Whether you're a coach - many of my clients have been coaches and it's the same thing of them and they typically don't feel understood or feel understood to an extent. So, there's more work that needs to be done there. The other thing is it's not complex, but that doesn't mean it's easy. How many years have we gone on saying, ‘let me tell you what's going on for me, let me know, let me convince you’. Let me, let me, pushing out like that. We've had so many years of doing that and it's hard to create a shift where we're like, okay, let's pause, let's slow down. Let's listen to understand. Let's do that. Make sure that that happens before we go into any solution or anything else.

KC – Well, it’s fascinating, isn't it, how we simplify it? And it is simple, as you say, but I think because of that it's missed. I did this leadership workshop with some high-level leaders in an organization and they really, really struggled with active listening. They almost felt like they weren't doing enough. I think our way of listening, quite often, is pushing out, but it's also relying on the brains mechanism to presume and pre-empt. Jumping in as opposed to holding space.

DW - Yes, exactly. It kind of reminds me about a tool that my wife and I have, we call it holding the basket. That's not necessarily good for couples that are in conflict with each other. 

KC – Okay. 

DW - Because that takes a pretty skillful couple to use this tool. But it's really helpful, my wife and I use it all the time for things like, one of us comes back from our work or something else is going on with family, with kids, who knows, it doesn't matter. So, holding the basket is kind of a signal, in a way, it's like ‘could you hold the basket for me? I want to let out some stuff’. The person who is, quote, holding the basket, their job is just to hold space. But it’s also a signal that, okay, if I'm the listener, I don't want to take on what's going on with my partner or whoever it is that I'm listening to. It could be at work, even. But I don't want to take it on because that's not my stuff. I want to be there for my partner, but I don't want to take it on. That's where the basket is, you imagine the basket’s in-between you so that whatever the person says is going into the basket and not taking it on. So, that can be helpful. I've had some clients that actually use a basket, use a real basket, they put it in front of them.

KC – That’s brilliant. After learning this tool off you it made me aware of how, well, firstly, it gives agency to both the listener and the one being listened to. I didn't realize how often I just expect, particularly my husband, to just listen to me. I come in and I just dump my day on him and I haven't even asked if that's okay, ‘are you in a good space to listen?’ And then when I'm not listened to I'm annoyed, because, well, why aren't you listening to me? 

DW - Exactly. 

KC - I think that's a fascinating design. It's a mini DTA in a way, isn't it? Can you hold the basket?

DW – Exactly. Can you hold the basket. And sometimes, like with my wife, sometimes one of us will just start acting like we have made that agreement. So, the other person will say ‘it sounds like I’m holding the basket’. 

KC - That's great.

DW - And then we just say, let's just say it was me that was having something to say or vent or clear, then I might say, ‘oh, yeah. Is this okay? Is this a good time?’ and then there's a yes or a no. But yes, about asking permission, is this a good time? If it's not, then let's talk about when a good time is, maybe in 10 minutes, as I finish this, or I'm really busy till later. 

KC – I think until this tool I felt like active listening should just be a part of everyday life which would be wonderful, but we only have a certain capacity. If we've been very busy all day with clients, it might not be that we have that space to be as present as we'd like. And so, what I like about this is then you can say ‘actually, no, but can we go for a walk tomorrow morning and discuss it then?’

DW - Right. And the other thing is, like I was saying it, gets the language up but also it’s a reminder, as the listener, like, ‘oh, yeah, this is not my stuff so I don't want to engage in it in that way, I just want to hold this space’. The other thing is it's about contacting the person's emotions first, or in this case, just letting them get it out. It's not about fixing. That's also super common. You asked about some of the common things with couples, and not just couples, with teens, too. It's like fix, fix, fix, solution, solution, solution. People want to feel understood. They want to feel heard, seen, understood first. Then we can go to solution.

KC - Well, that resonates for me because I am able to listen in a certain way with my clients, and yet, I don't know if it's because I care even more when it's my husband or family member but there is this desire to jump in and fix. This tool helped me to become aware of actually, no, they just want me to hold the basket. They don't want me to fix anything. I am just there as a space holder and that is my role.

DW - Yeah. Unless the person who is not holding the basket, who’s kind of like getting it out, they say, ‘you know, I could really use some help with this’. But usually it's, ‘let me just get it out first’. And then maybe you take a breath and say, ‘okay, have you got any ideas about how it could work with this?’, or ‘could you help me with this?’, or ‘I'm struggling with this’, and then there might be that. Or maybe it's like tomorrow I'd like to talk about how to move forward with this. But it's always about the person who is speaking? They're the one.

KC - Well, often times there aren't those questions, though. I actually think we probably offer our advice up way more than we're actually asked for it.

DW - Oh, yeah. Really common. That's one of the things, people go to solution really quick and then the person doesn't feel understood, or not completely understood. They just go to solution. Even with our business clients, working with teams, so often they’re just like, ‘let's just get to solution’. And many of the ORSC tools and skills that we teach, they’re about creating more awareness and understanding first, before going to solution. 

KC – Yeah. It's fascinating how powerful this can be. Going back to what I said before about that leadership training I ran, where everyone struggled with listening and felt like they weren't doing enough, I think sometimes when we're really actively listening and just holding space, it can feel like we're not doing enough and yet, it can be so healing.

DW - Absolutely. And it kind of goes back to what I’s said already, that people want to feel seen and understood and when that's not there… here's an example. So, there was a dental procedure that happened for me, it was a minor one. I didn't like the way the dentist, it's just like shaving a tooth, after he had done some work and he shaved the tooth, I wrote him an email and I said, ‘I'm feeling pain and it felt to me like you were rushed, and you were pretty aggressive’. I said a few things. I said it to him. Zero, nothing, no response. About three weeks later, I sent him another update. I said ‘well, it's finally starting to, the pain is starting to diminish, still they're a little bit’. And I got a very short response from him this time and it just said something like, ‘well, that's a good sign. Looks like it's healing’, basically that. It never addressed some of the things I said in that original email. Like I felt he was rushed. I felt he was a very aggressive with his drilling. So, I don't feel, to this day, I mean, this is just happening currently. I mean, I do not feel seen or understood by him. Or maybe he does, but he didn't address it. So, what's the impact of that? I feel less trust. I have this feeling of I don't know if I can trust this guy. Whereas I used to feel trust with him. So, it's hurt the trust. And I feel, of course, more distant. I mean, that's just a non-personal relationship. Like, how often do I see him? very seldom. You can just imagine with more personal relationships. It erodes trust, it creates more distance. If we don't heal, like my partner, I feel my partner understands me. That that feels good. My partner doesn't? 

KC - Well, it doesn't necessarily even mean they have to agree, it's more about that alignment piece in relationship. He could have just said, ‘I'm sorry, you felt unheard’. It's not saying that he agrees that you are unheard, he's just saying, ‘I'm sorry, you feel that way’ and it honors your primary.

DW - Exactly. That's a beautiful way to say it. I know that’s kind of ORSC lingo, but the primary is what's going on or what you're primarily feeling in that moment. So yes, it honors the primary and that is so important to us. It’s like, oh, I get it. I understand. I don't agree with you, but I wasn't rushed. Or I didn't feel I was aggressive, but I get that you did. Okay, I relax more. 

KC - It's amazing how something so simple like that can completely transform a relationship for better or for worse, if we miss it or we include it? 

DW - Yeah, exactly. 

KC – I’m wondering about how you feel our energy impacts the way we listen or not, because I've been playing around with the idea, meta skills come to mind. Meta skills for me are very much the energy which we come with to a conversation or a communication, and I wonder how you feel this can impact the way we show up in our relationships when we're listening? Because certain energies or meta skills might have a different impact compared to others.

DW - Well, somehow, it's important to say for the listener, in this example, but for the person who's speaking that they feel that the listener is really present and engaged and curious and wanting to understand. Like, I really want to understand what you're saying and I'm not going to what I'm going to say next or my response, or whether I like it, or agree. So, I think that's really important, that meta skill of being really present, really focused on the other person and the desire to understand. I really want to hear what's going on for you. It's simple. It's so easy, but it's simple.

KC – Yeah, and we can be so unconscious about what we bring sometimes. I notice if I've had a very task orientated day, and I then try and listen, even though I've got all these listening schools and tools under my belt, I don't listen in the way that I really want to. If I bring openness now or curiosity, now I'm listening differently. But if I'm task orientated, I'm trying to fix, I'm trying to tick the box.

DW – Well that reminds me of a client I had once; it was a couple. The guy worked in investments, on the market, and his job was trying to convince, we should do this, we should invest in this or not invest in that. So, if we're in a place where we're task oriented or maybe what our job is, if that's really different than that kind of space of let me just be here with you – that can be a hard transition. So, for this guy, I remember saying to this couple, ‘look, Joe, you're all day long you're doing this, you're trying to convince people to make this investment and now you come home and you're talking with your wife… of course, you're gonna bring some of that energy’. Of course. 

KC - Yeah. Because it serves you really well in that other system but it’s not necessarily the most useful energy for listening in that deeper way. 

DW - Definitely not. 

KC - And I'm sure many of us do this, because we feel we've learned how to listen and yet we're not really thinking about how we listen, which I think is as important as what we're doing when we're listening.

DW – Yeah. And one of the other things, it's maybe a little bit more subtle, but it's the same kind of thing - if my wife's talking and I feel like, ‘oh, I understand, I understand’, and I'm just going ‘I got it, I got it’. well, if she doesn't feel understood, or there's more that she wants to say, it's a little off putting. And maybe I do understand so it's not about that, it's not about whether the listener understands or doesn't, but it's really about does the other person feel understood? Let’s be really present to them. I mean, I could see, ‘yeah, I get it’, but how we say that also makes a difference.

KC - Yeah. And I think we sense that on an essence level. There were studies done on how even if we're nodding and smiling exactly as we should in a conversation, the other person knows when we're not really listening. So, we can't fool people into thinking that we're present with them. I think many of us think we can because we're multitasking while we’re on a Zoom call, but we know, we sensed at some level when someone's with us and when they're not.

DW - That's right. 

KC - Yeah. So, I'm curious about some of the ways we can upskill ourselves as listeners, particularly in some of those intimate relationships, with our families, with our partners, because this is where it often matters the most but sometimes where we can bring our most unskillful selves. 

DW -Right. So, what came to me as you said that was that so often when we're in personal relationship - but again, it applies to teams as well - there's a complaint or criticism. It's so easy to get defensive when we hear a complaint or criticism that kind of points towards us. if we have this presence to go, ‘okay, what's underneath that?’ In one of our ORSC tools we would call it dream behind the complaint. I just like to use the words what's the longing behind the complaint or criticism? What’s the desire? So, that's another thing I really talk to clients around, couples or really any client. So, what's underneath it? What is it that you're really wanting? Because if you talk about that, or if you go for that, say, as a listener, if you go for that, like, so I hear that you're upset about something but what is it that you're wanting? What is it that you're longing for? That opens up a different kind of conversation. Maybe you need to hear the complaint first, maybe. But ideally, if we can look at what's underneath the complaint or criticism and work with that, that has a much more productive compensation.

KC - I think from this conversation, David, I'm coming away already with the idea that listening is an essential skill set for alignment. I think I've always thought about other tools being more for alignment, you need to do more in order to create alignment. But actually, when we really listen to understand, we're sort of leaning towards alignment, naturally.

DW – Yeah, definitely. Because what's underneath that complaint? It's like, oh, I get that, I’m with that. But then, but if I hear it as a complaint, I’m like, ahhh. It's hard to get aligned, when the person is feeling criticized or blamed. But if they can feel like, okay, what's underneath that is this longing for whatever it is x, y, z, and that's where we can find alignment. And that's why the lands work tool, which, for people that are not ORSC trained, it's about empathetically understanding, not just understanding with one's head, but understanding what's really going on for the person around a particular topic or focus. And from that, under greater understanding… and understanding has to go both ways, of course, understanding each person, and then there's that lens of how are we going to work with this, given our differences? Because of course we're going to be different. 

KC – Yeah of course, we're going to be different. I think there's maybe an assumption, particularly with couples, that because we're a couple we think the same and then we fall into patterns and they're not always the best patterns. I think the work we do, particularly in ORSC, it gives us the opportunity to choose different patterns, particularly in our partnerships. Because I wonder, particularly with couples, when you've been together for so long, the brain has this amazing mechanism to fill in the blanks, you could say, in terms of our surroundings, we're not always taking in every sensory stimulus otherwise we'd be overwhelmed. I think the challenge can be there, particularly with people we know well. We can just suddenly assume we know who they are. And we know what they're going to say. And we kind of switch off because yeah, we've heard this one before - how can we wake up and be more present with them so that we see them as the emergent beings that they are?

DW - Yeah, well, that's an interesting thing. In a way that kind of opens up to a broader conversation. My wife and I used to lead trainings or workshops for couples and one of the things that we would start off with is the statement of everything that you think, say or do is either going to have us feel closer or furhter apart. So, even thinking my thoughts, my thoughts about us, it's either going to bring us farther apart or closer together. 

KC - Wow, that's a really powerful thing to think about.

DW - Yeah. And if you really reflect on that I think that, at least for us, that that holds water, that's true. And so, the question is do I want to feel closer? Do we want to feel closer together? Or are we okay with distance? Maybe it doesn't matter, but for most couples, at least the ones that come to get some sort of counselling, or coaching or therapy, they're wanting to feel closer. So then, what's going to help us feel closer? What's going to keep that spark alive? We have a lot to explore. 

KC - Do you find that listening to understand is often at the core of that?

DW - Well, it’s certainly an important part of it. Absolutely. That's definitely important. Because if we don't do that then, I think the more things where people don't feel understood, it lingers in the space between. The more we have in that space between that's unresolved, it just clogs our connection, it gets in the way. Over the years, if we do that constantly, day in and day out for years, which is pretty common for a lot of couples, then there's a big space between us. So, oftentimes couples come in with their relationship is flat, because of years of not having the relationship be a priority or not knowing how, then there's a lot of stuff in the space. So, it's like, yeah, things are flat.

KC - I find couples, fascinating, both in terms of my own relationship but also the couples I've worked with. There's something about, particularly in our intimate relationships, we seem to fall into these patterns. Either we've inherited or we just make up as we go along. And we don't tend to prototype and say, ‘actually, this isn't working, this isn't great’. We just sort of accept it and that becomes our narrative for the next 50 years. I wonder how you help couples to redesign. Because I'm sure you've worked with couples who've been together for a long time. And actually, it can be hard to shift out from some of those hardwired neural pathways. 

DW – Oh yeah, absolutely. One of things I say to couples is how long has this pattern, say, been going on, whatever it is that’s creating some distance, how long has that been going on in your life? It's not like just to like the Wizard of Oz kind of things like, ‘oh, okay, now you have a heart, or now you have intimacy!’ No, it doesn't work like that. It takes time and attention and practice. And so over time, I think we can create some shifts, but first we need to have awareness of what are our patterns that we're doing. And using the ORSC language, reveal the system or reveal the relationship to itself. What are the patterns? What are the dynamics? Let's understand those, because then we can put some attention into those places that need it. So, as an example, one of the things I ask couples a lot, both sexual and non-sexual intimacy, I might say, ‘so what brings you closer, what brings further apart?’ We could explore that with sexual intimacy, if that's what they want to work on, or we could explore that with non-sexual intimacy if that's what they want to work on, or both. But it's that that kind of question - what brings you closer together? What creates more distance?

KC - And then, wow, that awareness that gives them the choice then to choose to change it. 

DW - To choose to change it. Like yes, we want to feel closer, now we understand that we’ve got these patterns that keeps us apart. There needs to be a desire for something else and that's where a coach, a counsellor or a therapist who understands about these things can help them create some new patterns or habits, ways of relating that will get them what they want.

KC - It makes me think about my parents. They have a couple of friends, two different couples, and they always say about how mean they are to each other. They’re in this long marriage and yet they're often bickering and being quite nasty at times. It seems like a lack of listening can sit underneath any of the toxic behaviors, so it can be a form of defensiveness, stonewalling, contempt or blaming. It seems like all of those can be manifested in this not listening or not listening to understand, at least. 

DW -Yeah, well, this is a little bit different but as you started to speak there, I just had this flash memory coming into my thoughts. So, I used to be a whitewater outfitter and guide and I had quite a few guides that worked for me and we'd go off and river trips and we would have a lot of fun as guides. There was one little time where we started to do a lot of playing, teasing which was really fun. But it started to grow and that started to become the pattern, and I started to look at what is that doing to our relationships with each other? It's creating a little bit of distance because we were doing it too much. A lot of couples do that. They tease, they play too much, a lot. Too much in terms of leading in a direction that they don't want, they want more closeness, but they keep teasing each other and so they stay a little bit distant. So, I remember talking to that with all my guides, and saying, ‘look, great, let's have fun, let's tease, play, all that kind of stuff. But let's be mindful about not doing it too much because there is an impact and the impact is it’s creating distance, or at least it's not fostering closeness which is what we want.’ 

KC – You’re so right and I think that’s quite rife over here in the UK, we have a culture of banter, which is, you could say sarcasm, 

DW - Oh, yeah.

KC - And it shows up in a lot of couples, young, old and middle aged. At surface level, it can be quite fun and light. But over time, it can become quite contentious, and it can erode away at that relationship. I think this is what my parents see in some of their friends. It's actually quite nasty, it's not funny, but it's been such a long-time pattern that they can't really see it in quite the way it manifests. I just wonder if there was that layer of listening, how that would help some of these relationships that maybe are a little bit disconnected, and they've lost their alignment? They’re off course. What might listening do to remedy that? 

DW - I think first we’ve got to look at the pattern, the dynamic between them, and what they want, and then really start listening. Let me hear what you want. And of course, I want you to hear what I want. What do you want in this relationship? Those of us to work with couples or teams can help to foster that conversation. So, let's, let's talk about it. I guess you guys are teasing each other all the time, what does that teach you? Do you want to feel closeness? What is non-sexual intimacy or connection, what does that feel for you? What does that look like for you? And it might be different for each of them. Or maybe it’s like, no, we're good. We're living kind of parallel lives, that’s cool, we’re good with that. But I certainly think if they want something different then they should develop more listening skills with each other. It’s a huge step.

KC - Because I guess, as well, what we haven't mentioned is when we're listening, we're not just listening for the words, we're listening for what's not being said as well.

DW - Exactly, yeah. And that's why when I do supervision for coaches, I always say listen to what's underneath the story, but that applies for those of us that are not coaches or counsellors or whatever. What else is going on between us, me and my partner? What's underneath our storyline? 

KC – So listening really does create so much, doesn't it? So much awareness and then choice from that. 

DW – Yeah, and I like what you're focusing on, bringing it back to this listening part. Because there's how do we listen, we listen with our ears, but there's also like the… I think you mentioned earlier, we want to listen with our heart. Listen with our arms open to let me just really hear and sense, listen with all of our senses.

KC - I don't want to sound dramatic. But in some ways, when you put it like that, it could be a spiritual practice, you could say, listening. Or a meditative practice because you're so present with that person in front of you.

DW - Yeah, absolutely. And there are so many different models for how to have a skill in conversation. I think a lot of it, their themes and variations of really being present in that process and talking about self. That's the other thing. That's another huge thing. People tend to talk about the other person. And again, that's been modelled to us in books and movies and probably most of our parents, they talk about the other person. And that's really hard. I find it really hard for couples to really stay with talking about self. 

KC – ‘I'm not feeling heard’, as opposed to, ‘you're not listening’. Very different impact. It just reveals so much about the patterns, and it allows for that relationship to show up and there's that ownership and agency there that we get from relationship systems intelligence. I'm curious - in terms of this whole conversation, David, it reminds me of Annie Dillard quote, “how we live our days is how we live our lives”. I think listening is such an important part of this because it is so simple. So seemingly simple, but not easy. What is one tip you have for our listeners that can help them to bring more of this presence and then aliveness into their relationships?

DW - Well, as you started talking, I just had a little reflection. There's no way that I could, or I think anybody, could be constantly present with our partner all the time. 

KC – No. 

DW – So, if we have some boundaries, it's like, okay, I'm gonna be doing my thing or in my space, and then there are other times where, ok, now I want to be present. So, I think having those boundaries can help us be more present. Because otherwise, it can be, like my hands are going back and forth, there's no boundaries of the two people. It's overwhelming and we don't want to get overwhelmed. We're not going to be able to be present all the time and that's where it’s good to say, ‘is this a good time to talk?’ Whether it's holding the basket or whether it's saying that there's a challenge here in our relationship I want to talk about it, is this a good time? It’s great to have a Gottman style ‘is this a good time’ conversation. 

KC – I’ve found actually even putting a time on it, because I can sometimes go quite a lot at my husband in terms of, I've got this topic we need to discuss, and that can overwhelm him. If we put a five-minute time boundary around it, we know it's not this infinite conversation, there is an end and it doesn't have to take over a whole evening. I think that's really helpful, because then we can then be focused for that five-minutes around this important conversation.

DW - And that's another thing I oftentimes say, shorter is more effective. If we say too much the person could go at first go like, well, okay, yeah, and then it keeps going on and on and inside they’re going oh yeah, ok, I kind of lost you there after five minutes. But if we can say shorter things and just kind of make some pauses, slow down. And of course, talk about one thing at a time, that’s also important.

KC - I really appreciate this, David, because you're not saying ‘yeah, we should be actively listening all the time’, because that would be impossible. You're saying be conscious about when it matters.

DW - Yes. And I think that's a great way to say it - when it matters. We’re all humans, we're doing our busy stuff, most of us are pretty busy. Am I going to pay attention to everything my wife says? I don't think so. And vice versa. But I want to be aware of when it matters. Like, oh, there's something here. And then maybe it's like, I know it’s important we talk a little bit but let me just finish this first. Or maybe I can go right there and have that conversation. 

KC – Yeah, creating those alliances around how we listen and when we listen together, so that it can be in alignment for our relationship. 

DW - For our relationship. I think that's kind of a whole other topic in a way, because many of us still have that solo lens and what's going to serve our relationship without giving up self? That's so important. We want to stay true to ourselves, accept influence. How do we do that?

KC – What’s going to serve our relationship? Thank you so much, David, for this discussion. This was delightful and so insightful. I'm taking away many goodies from this conversation. So, a huge thanks.

DW - No, thank you, Katie. I really appreciate you asking me.

[Music outro begins 39:50] 

KC - A huge thanks to David for that fascinating discussion. Here are my key takeaways. Listening to understand is when we're listening to find out what's going on for the other person, beyond the words they're saying. We move away from pre-empting and predicting and instead we're present with the other person and hold space for them. Holding the basket is a helpful way of creating conditions around when and how we listen in our relationships. For example, one partner might ask the other to hold the basket for them after a stressful day at work. By asking for permission, it gives the other person the opportunity to say yes or no, and also gives them a role. Their job is to simply hold the basket, to listen for a given amount of time. They're not taking on the other person's stress and their job is not to fix the other person's problems unless asked. They're simply listening and holding space. When we listen to understand and acknowledge how the other person is feeling, we honor their primary. We honor what is going on for them, what is true for them, and this can help the other person to feel seen and heard in their relationship. Listening to understand helps us to get beyond our differences, to go beyond our storylines, and to be present to the emergence that lives within each of us and our relationships. For over 20 years, CRR Global has accompanied leaders, teams, and practitioners on their journey to stronger relationships by focusing on the relationship itself, not only the individuals occupying it. This leads to a community of changemakers around the world. Supported by a global network of Faculty and Partners, we connect, inspire, and equip change agents to shift systems, one relationship at a time. CRR Global’s unshakeable belief is that relationship matters, from humanity to nature to the larger whole. For more information please visit CRRGlobal.com. 

[Music outro 41:47 – end]